455 MARK II TRIPLE LOCK 1ST MODEL HAND EJECTOR HELP

[mentallapse]

Not exactly sure what I have. I think it is a .455 Mark II Hand Ejector First Model. The barrel is 6 1/2". Serial number is 3347 with no initial prefix. Didn't find a caliber marking on the pistol. A .45 Colt cartridge does not fit. The cylinder has bevels in each chamber. There are British proofs in several places. The barrel and frame both say Not English Make. On the left side it is inscribed to J.H. Woodger, Norfolk Reg. Have found information on Mr. Woodger. Can't find a connection between him and the Norfolk Regiment. Wondering if anyone has information on a connection between Woodger and the Norfolk Regiment? Any information would be appreciated. Mentallapse

 

[opoefc]

The Brits are very good about keeping accurate records of military personnel. There are several web sites that have links to the records, or ask the Keeper of Exhibits at the Imperial War Museum web site for links to the records. A Google search of the Norfolk Regiment should bring up links to the muster rolls. Your gun is most likely an unaltered T-Lock still in the .455 caliber, and one of the 5,000 separately serial numbered in that caliber and sent to England. Almost any .45 cal. round will fit, except the .45 Colt, as it's too long. Ed.

 

[Texas Star]

IF this is a .455, not maybe a .44 Special or .44/40 , it's still an early Triple Lock. I think most had a gold colored medallion at the top of the grip plates. Ths gun may be too early for that.

Is the barrel marked as to caliber?

This is NOT a MK II, a name usually reserved for the Second Model Hand Ejector that replaced this more expensive gun. See that extractor rod shroud?

The British felt it made the gun too heavy and maybe more prone to jam in a muddy trench. It also added to cost.

In those days, officers bought their own sidearms, so a name on one isn't rare. This one may considerably pre-date WWI and may have been obtained on the regular commercial market by the owner. The lack of those brass (?) medallions on the grips makes me think that's the case.

The gun seems not to have been carried much at all. It is probably quite valuable. I'll let the specialist collectors tell you current prices, and they aren't low! The Triple Lock is regarded by many as the finest-made revolver ever produced by S&W and any example in this condition is a valuable gun.

How someone like you who doesn't even know what this gun is can acquire items this impressive just baffles me. It is a rare prize for both S&W collectors and for British Martial collectors. You are very fortunate to have it, if it is your gun.

I think you need to quickly buy a basic reference book on guns. Apart from specialist S&W titles, the Triple Lock and other basic models are well covered in the late Elmer Keith's, "The Sixgun" and in Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun."

How did you encounter it? I hope you bought a lottery ticket the same day. Maybe you're on a run of luck!

 

[Muley Gil]

"This is NOT a MK II, a name usually reserved for the Second Model Hand Ejector that replaced this more expensive gun. See that extractor rod shroud?"

TS, the SCSW 3rd lists the .455 Triple Lock as a ".455 Mark II Hand Ejector First Model". I believe the "Mark II" refers to the cartridge, as the SCSW lists the more common 2nd Model as the "
.455 Mark II Hand Ejector Second Model".

 

[deadin]

Here is the best forum I have found for all things WW1 British:

Great War Forum

Also you might go to The Long, Long Trail for an overview of WW1 British soldiers, units and research facilities.

 

[murphydog]

Very nice! The chambering is likely .455 Mk II (aka .455 Webley), and Fiocchi still makes it periodically. Enjoy!

 

[deadin]

I think most had a gold colored medallion at the top of the grip plates. Ths gun may be too early for that.

I just checked the serial number against the early factory conversions that S&W did before the 1st contract guns were made. (I thought that might account for the non-medallion stocks.) Unfortunately it's not on the list. I have #718 with the gold medallion grips and AFAIK so did all of the 5000 1st contract guns.
The fact that it has passed through a commercial dealer (re the commercial proofs) may indicate that the grips were replaced at that time. You might pull the right grip and see if there is a serial number on it. (It may be in pencil)

 

[Skeetr57]

The "MKII" business is confusing to me. The .455 Webley MKI has longer case than the MKII, however all the S&W revolvers I have owned or examined in .455 have been chambered for the longer MKI case. Can any one explain this?

 

[murphydog]

Someone here recently posted that the revolvers were chambered to accept the Mk I just in case someone in the far-flung Empire could only find the longer rounds. Don't know if that is the reason but it makes sense.

 

[deadin]

The Brits believed in backwards compatibility. I believe most all of their military .45cal revolvers would handle any of the older ammo all the way back to the .450 Revolver.
All the Mark II really indicated was that the gun would handle cordite (smokeless?) loads. (The case was shorter because they didn't need the space capacity that the earlier loads required.) It is possible, but not recommended, to shoot Mk II's in the earlier Marks of the Webley revolvers. (Especially the jacketed version that came into being later.)

 

[mentallapse]

How someone like you who doesn't even know what this gun is can acquire items this impressive just baffles me. It is a rare prize for both S&W collectors and for British Martial collectors. You are very fortunate to have it, if it is your gun.

How did you encounter it? I hope you bought a lottery ticket the same day. Maybe you're on a run of luck![/QUOTE]

Thanks for your input. Even a blind hog finds and acorn every now and then. Monday, got a call from a person wanting to sell some guns. Met up with him and purchased two Smiths and two Colts. Got a couple of nice holsters also. Don't know much about S&Ws. I do know condition and like odd markings.

I appreciate you and the others for taking time to help educate me. Hate to admit it, but I wasn't even sure what triple lock meant. I am not a novice collector, just have a very narrow focus, which is wider now. Thanks again for your help!!

 

[Iggy]

It is probably unwise to shoot 45ACPs in your gun. ACPs loads are akin to proof loads for the old .455 Webley cartridge.

They will fit, but the differences in pressures is about 5000 psi.

 

[gunfish]

The penciled ser# on the stocks may be difficult to see. Here is a pic of of the back of the right stock off the New Century 1st Model (triplelock) I was lucky enough to find. Notice that someone scratched the # on the back, they may not have seen the graphite. Buy some .455 Fiochi ammo, shoot and smile.

 

[Texas Star]

"This is NOT a MK II, a name usually reserved for the Second Model Hand Ejector that replaced this more expensive gun. See that extractor rod shroud?"

TS, the SCSW 3rd lists the .455 Triple Lock as a ".455 Mark II Hand Ejector First Model". I believe the "Mark II" refers to the cartridge, as the SCSW lists the more common 2nd Model as the "
.455 Mark II Hand Ejector Second Model".

Muley-

I was referring to the gun, not the cartridge. It can be confusing, especially as many call the Second Model a MK II. I don't believe the British used a MK II designation for the gun; just for the ctg.

I think all .455's will chamber .450, .476, and both the MK I and MK II .455 ammo.

The Webley autos and some Colt Govt. Models made for Britain use a separate .455 auto ctg. It threw a 225 grain bullet at some 750 FPS, I think. The velocity was definitely well under .45 ACP performance. That may be why some British officers, including Churchill, bought Colt autos in the normal .45 ACP.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

My triple lock has a lot of stamps on it as well. It was converted to .45 Colt.

 

[Texas Star]

How someone like you who doesn't even know what this gun is can acquire items this impressive just baffles me. It is a rare prize for both S&W collectors and for British Martial collectors. You are very fortunate to have it, if it is your gun.

How did you encounter it? I hope you bought a lottery ticket the same day. Maybe you're on a run of luck!

Thanks for your input. Every squirrel finds and acorn sometime. Monday, got a call from a person wanting to sell some guns. Met up with him and purchased two Smiths and two Colts. Got a couple of nice holsters also. Don't know much about S&Ws. I do know condition and like odd markings.

I appreciate you and the others for taking time to help educate me. Hate to admit it, but I wasn't even sure what triple lock meant. I am not a novice collector, just have a very narrow focus, which is wider now. Thanks again for your help!![/QUOTE]

Triple Lock refers to the unique lock at the frame and crane/yoke junction. I think only this gun and the Ruger GP-100 type guns have that lock.The Ruger system is different, but does lock the crane.

Which other guns did you get? We're always curious here!

I enlarged the photos,and now think the gun has been carried some. But it still seems to be in very nice condition.

I'm pretty sure that you can trace the owner. I hope he wasn't killed in the war.

 

[cgt4570]

If you discover that your grips are not original to the gun, I will trade you a very nice set of correct gold tone deep dish medallion grips plus I'll throw in some cash to boot. I can use another set like yours but I have an excess of the others.

 

[mentallapse]

"Which other guns did you get? We're always curious here!"

I got two holsters and four pistols. Colt New Service 455 Eley, with holster, it is marked Hugh Carson Co. Ottawa -191; Colt Officer's Model 38 special, near mint condition; S&W 1st Model Hand Ejector, (pictured in this thread), with holster, holster is marked Finnigans LTD 1916; and S&W Highway Patrolman near mint (it is in another thread posted earlier. Sorry the pictures aren't better. They show a lot of reflection. I ordered letters today for the two Smiths.

 

[Muley Gil]

It is probably unwise to shoot 45ACPs in your gun. ACPs loads are akin to proof loads for the old .455 Webley cartridge.

They will fit, but the differences in pressures is about 5000 psi.

Don't believe this one has been cut for .45 ACPs with moon clips. Have you tried a .45 ACP without the clips in a .455 chamber? I would think the round would slide into the chamber too far to fire.

 

[Texas Star]

"Which other guns did you get? We're always curious here!"

I got two holsters and four pistols. Colt New Service 455 Eley, with holster, it is marked Hugh Carson Co. Ottawa -191; Colt Officer's Model 38 special, near mint condition; S&W 1st Model Hand Ejector, (pictured in this thread), with holster, holster is marked Finnigans LTD 1916; and S&W Highway Patrolman near mint (it is in another thread posted earlier. Sorry the pictures aren't better. They show a lot of reflection. I ordered letters today for the two Smiths.

My word, you DID have a productive day!

Does the Colt .455 New Service have an officer's name on it? Some were sold commericlally and the UK govt. bought many. Some were sold to officers, "out of stores". Do you know the mark to denote that? The Broad Arrow govt. property mark will have an opposing Broad Arrow to note that the gun has been sold and has become private property.

The holsters really interest me. That is rhe second Canadian one with the unique flap strap that has been posted here. They both had the added length to take the longer S&W guns. I think the Canadian government must have ordered holsters specifcally for those guns. I had a British holster that was a bit loose fit for a MK VI Webley. I think they made many holsters to take any Webley with a six-inch bbl., and the big Colt .455. Webley WG's may need a slightly larger holster than the MK. VI and some were probably still carried in WW I.