Yeah, I was watching that one. Stayed at $805 forever. Was tempted to bid, but figured it was too good to be true... and it was! The "Woodlawn Boyz" are finding an AWFUL lot of TL's!
Congrats on your TL! That's a beaut alright!
.455 Triple Lock value
- Thread starter Skizzer
- Start date
Yeah, I was watching that one. Stayed at $805 forever. Was tempted to bid, but figured it was too good to be true... and it was! The "Woodlawn Boyz" are finding an AWFUL lot of TL's!
Congrats on your TL! That's a beaut alright!
I can certainly see that and they've helped me a bunch already! Really appreciated! Glad I decided to seek help and knowledge here! Thanks!
Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! I perceive a higher differential between the .44 and .455 triple locks. The 44s seem to be about 2-3 times what a .455 goes for. That may be because most of what I've seen over the last 4-5 years were modified guns...mostly for .45 Colt. The type of conversion may also play a part with the quick and dirty shave the cylinder face bringing less than the cylinder chambers being counter sunk for .45 Colt so .45 Webley can still be shot. Nevertheless, I'm proud that I bought my .455 a few years back. May have paid too soon but not too much.
That's a fine lookin piece! Thx for sharin and fer the info!
Wow, even though it's not according to S&W protocol, whoever did that prep and plating did expert work!
The woodlawnboys 44 1st Model TL Coml .455, albeit not a military collectible, is what I'd consider the queen mother of .455s to have. A Type 4 of the 4 various 455 versions below. This actually reflects updated information from Roy Jinks than he knew in 2004 as the stated history in the letters and notes shown in the auction:
THEY ARE:
1. ".44 HE - 1st Model", 'Triple Lock', chambered for .455: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority shipped Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #'d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1104 to 10417. Per Neal & Jinks. Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.
* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it's actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203 - 205].
The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.
The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.
The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it's unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.
2. ".455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL" in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to ~5800* assembled 1914-15. Thus creating 64** duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the ".44 HE 1st Model TL" .455 conversion serial number range.
*Previously reported as 5461. "The .455 H.E. First Model 5462 is in the last shipment [1915] of the model for the British Government. After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially. The serial number range actually goes to 5800 including the commercially shipped guns. Since the factory did not keep any records of the cut off at the end of a model change, it has taken years to put together all the data to obtain the correct serial ranges. I have to tell you that in the game of collecting S&W's for 50 years I still am learning about various models and changes I did not think were possible when I started this research." Roy 8/25/18
http://smith-wessonforum.com/swca-q...1st-model-discovery-puzzle.html#post140145422
**There are 64 duplicates of TL #s of the existing 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE 1st Model TLs factory converted to .455 (1st version above), #s 1104-5755 in the .44 HE # range (not all inclusive, known and listed [S&W 1857 – 1945 pgs. 204-205]), with 64 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1 to 5800 in the Brit contract # range.
There can be ~ 4988 .44 TLs duplicated serial #s with .455 TLs.
There's also duplicate #s of the .44 HE 1st Model TL .455s #5801 to #15375 (the last .44 HE 1st Model TL serial # known), of ~796 with .455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version) #s 5801 up thru #10007 in the Brit range, but the exact #s of duplicates is unknown because not all #s are known to have been used in either range.
3. ".455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with cylinder pin hole reduced .020" and the Ext Rod is reduced .020" in diameter (Neal & Jinks Pg. 215-16) from versions 1. the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and 2. the ".455 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" produced in .455. This version was referred to as the MK II revolver by the British and stamped 'II' by them, left side frame.
The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning ~#5801 (previously thought to be 5462) to #74755, shipped 1915-17.
By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, without a cartridge roll mark on barrel, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].
Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916; likely "over run" guns from the above order.
The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].
And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].
4. ".44 HE - 1st Model", 'Triple Lock', again, originally factory converted to .455. "As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters], Triple Lock frames [like #1. above also chambered in .455]. These guns are numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially." Lee Jarrett
11/3/15 "In April, 1916, the Factory found enough parts to assemble 691 Triple Lock 455s. They were assembled from April to Oct of 1916. They were numbered [late] in the 44 HE series. All I have seen are numbered from the 12,000 to 14,000's. [in 1916 and 1917 - 325 were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and some to Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, MO]
Some letter as being commercial sales, but I have long suspected that S&W simply slid many into the last of the British shipments at the standard price for the 455-2nd Models. I say that because I have observed several now with Brit ordnance marks and/or commercial proofs." Lee Jarrett
At least one #12609 of those we know of was shipped to Montreal, Canada in Nov 1916 per Lee. See letter here: The Young LT's Triple Lock .455
Mike,
Here's all the threads links I have that discuss British stampimgs:
Triple-Lock Rescue
S&W .44 Hand Ejector 1st Model #15
http://smith-wessonforum.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=375432
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...-lock-wwi-british-markings.html#post137889628
2nd model or MKII ?
http://smith-wessonforum.com/search...:siodb9lchnk&cof=FORID:9&q=455+markings&sa=Go
S&W Model 1917 Stamped "Not English Made"
.455 Picture Thread
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/351610-455-he-markings.html#post137627822
S&W .44 Hand Ejector 1st Model #15
Here's all the threads links I have that discuss British stampimgs:
Triple-Lock Rescue
S&W .44 Hand Ejector 1st Model #15
http://smith-wessonforum.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=375432
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...-lock-wwi-british-markings.html#post137889628
2nd model or MKII ?
http://smith-wessonforum.com/search...:siodb9lchnk&cof=FORID:9&q=455+markings&sa=Go
S&W Model 1917 Stamped "Not English Made"
.455 Picture Thread
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/351610-455-he-markings.html#post137627822
S&W .44 Hand Ejector 1st Model #15
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