45ACP,HP-38, 200grain LSWC, published data......question/clarification

[peppercorn]

I am in the process of developing loads using Bayou Bullets 200 grain LSWC bullets.

My data sources are Lymans 49th, Lymans Cast Bullet handbook and the most recent Lee Modern Reloading guide.

All data listed is for the above components.

Lee, 200 grain lead bullet:

4.4min 5.6max
COL 1.225"


Lyman, both manuals show the same data but specify two different Lyman SWC molds.
They also conveniently show pictures of each bullet.

Lyman #452460 data:

4.0min 6.0max
COL 1.161"

Lyman #452630 data:

5.4min 6.1max
COL 1.235"


The Bayou LSWC most resembles the Lyman #452630 profile with the two bearing surfaces and bevel base.
I chose to run with this data based on the picture provided in the Lyman manual.

I am loading these to a COL of 1.25" (+/-) .02''.

So, here is my question/confusion:

In searching through forums, online data sources, including loaddata.com and the like it seems that lots of guys are running 200grain LSWCs in the 4.5-5.1 range. Virtually none specify the bullet mold/profile however.

In fact, many think 5.4 is a little 'Hot' and 6.1 is 'Way Hot' but again the profile /mold is not specified.

Back to my question.

Does the Lyman data jive with your experience with this bullet?
Do you load this bullet below the data minimum?

Do I need to stay in the 5.4-6.1 range or can I drop below minimum and be safe?

Thanks for any and all input and or clarification.

 

[fredj338]

This the issue with lead bullets, the shape matters, the OAL matters,the number of lube grooves matters, all when you are running the upper end. If you are loading @ midrange or below, it matters less. Now moly coated bullets tend to be slick, slick = less pressures = less vel. It will often take a little more powder to give equiv vel/pressures of a non moly coated bullet. SO I would NOT go below starting data with them or at least go at it 0.1gr at a time & not more than 5rds to test.

 

[cb4017]

I started loading.45 ACP about 1975. HP38 is a good powder for the caliber. I assume you are loading for plinking and paper punching. For a 200gr LSWC I recommend a lower charge weight range of around 4.5 - 5.5grains. I would start at the lower charge weight. If the load functions well in your gun and is accurate I would stop there.

A couple of other thoughts. Use a taper crimp die and do the crimp in an operation separate from bullet seating. Your OAL may have to be adjusted slightly for chambering and reliable feeding.

Good Luck!

 

[max]

I have loaded various 200gr lead swc's over 5.0 of 231 for 40 years without any problems.

 

[SMSgt]

Per Hodgdonn's data site:
200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon HP-38 .451" COL 1.225" Min 4.4 Vel 771 11,000 CUP Max 5.6 Vel 914 16,900 CUP

 

[MikeyB]

For me 5.2gr of W231/HP-38 is the sweet range for both 200 and 230gr castings.

 

[peppercorn]

This the issue with lead bullets, the shape matters, the OAL matters,the number of lube grooves matters, all when you are running the upper end. If you are loading @ midrange or below, it matters less. Now moly coated bullets tend to be slick, slick = less pressures = less vel. It will often take a little more powder to give equiv vel/pressures of a non moly coated bullet. SO I would NOT go below starting data with them or at least go at it 0.1gr at a time & not more than 5rds to test.

As you state above, shape, length and grooves matter and lube. I understand your advice to start low and work up, thank you for that.
My issue is that one data set minimum, #452630, starts just 0.2 grains above the max for the Hodgdon and Lee data and 0.4 for the Lyman #452460.
So, without regard to bullet anatomy a person could be loading well over max or well below minimum, depending on bullet and which data is chosen.
It is interesting to me that Hodgdon doesn't differentiate this.
And, as seen below, many others operate in the 4.5 to 5.2 range without specifying bullet shape.
Would you agree that given this bullet the data set is 5.4-6.1 or would you be comfortable in the 4.5-5.6 range?

I started loading.45 ACP about 1975. HP38 is a good powder for the caliber. I assume you are loading for plinking and paper punching. For a 200gr LSWC I recommend a lower charge weight range of around 4.5 - 5.5grains. I would start at the lower charge weight. If the load functions well in your gun and is accurate I would stop there.



A couple of other thoughts. Use a taper crimp die and do the crimp in an operation separate from bullet seating. Your OAL may have to be adjusted slightly for chambering and reliable feeding.

Good Luck!

Yes, paper punching, bullseye style.
Crimping is done separately and length is set at 1.25" +/- .02 for optimal chambering.

You recommend lower chart range, in your experience has the bullet mold made you adjust this recommendation to the higher chart range? Have you mostly loaded the #452460 style LSWC over the years or a mix of both using the same data?

I have loaded various 200gr lead swc's over 5.0 of 231 for 40 years without any problems.

I hope to say, someday, that I have been loading 40 years!

Per Hodgdonn's data site:
200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon HP-38 .451" COL 1.225" Min 4.4 Vel 771 11,000 CUP Max 5.6 Vel 914 16,900 CUP

I looked at this data also, thanks for the input.

For me 5.2gr of W231/HP-38 is the sweet range for both 200 and 230gr castings.

Interesting, you run the same charge for two different weights. Have you chronographed these?

 

[MikeyB]

No chrono. Been using 5.2gr of W231 for years pushing the 230's with excellent results. Recently I started loading 200gr casts (Mihecs) and found the accuracy just as good with the same charge. Accuracy trumps velocity.

 

[mikld]

When in doubt, start with the lowest starting load. If one manual suggests 4.8 as a starter and another manual suggests 5.3, and you question the higher load, then start with the lower powder charge. What will it hurt if you start low? Are you in a hurry to develop a load for your gun? What does it matter if you try 5 different loads rather than 3? You are still reloading (fun), and still shooting (fun) and still comparing results (fun). FWIW the differences between manuals is largely a difference in testing; different lots of powder, different test equipment, and different "style" or "design" of the same bullet and this equals different results/data.

 

[Rule3]

Do not go by the LEE data. It is date taken from somewhere else some time ago. LEE never tested anything. It is all a compilation from other sources. All tests will vary the exact bullet used and the variation in the powder used on that particular day.

OAL is also something that you can not go by unless you again have the exact bullet.

So go with the Powder companies start for the weight of the bullet lead or jacketed, same style (SWC, RN, FP whatever)

And use your barrel as the test gauge, and plunk test a loaded, crimped round, it should plunk in and seat and when turned over fall right out.

 

[peppercorn]

No chrono. Been using 5.2gr of W231 for years pushing the 230's with excellent results. Recently I started loading 200gr casts (Mihecs) and found the accuracy just as good with the same charge. Accuracy trumps velocity.

I don't chrono either, just wondered if you did and, if so, what ,if any, variations you saw at that charge.
I am with you on accuracy. Thanks again.

When in doubt, start with the lowest starting load. If one manual suggests 4.8 as a starter and another manual suggests 5.3, and you question the higher load, then start with the lower powder charge. What will it hurt if you start low? Are you in a hurry to develop a load for your gun? What does it matter if you try 5 different loads rather than 3? You are still reloading (fun), and still shooting (fun) and still comparing results (fun). FWIW the differences between manuals is largely a difference in testing; different lots of powder, different test equipment, and different "style" or "design" of the same bullet and this equals different results/data.

No hurry. Just trying to get clear on all this. It is a lot easier to load for a revolver, I have found, what with the crimp groove and COL being somewhat set. I will dial back a bit and move forward, 5 per gun, at a time. And, yes, definitely having fun with all aspects of the hobby.

Do not go by the LEE data. It is date taken from somewhere else some time ago. LEE never tested anything. It is all a compilation from other sources. All tests will vary the exact bullet used and the variation in the powder used on that particular day.

OAL is also something that you can not go by unless you again have the exact bullet.

So go with the Powder companies start for the weight of the bullet lead or jacketed, same style (SWC, RN, FP whatever)

And use your barrel as the test gauge, and plunk test a loaded, crimped round, it should plunk in and seat and when turned over fall right out.

Ok, Rule.

Sound advice as usual. I definitely do the 'plunk' test and the loads have passed so far.
I guess I will focus less on the 'mold' type and look more to the powder companies data. I really got stuck on the two different mold types and the subsequent data for each.

 

[max]

I just loaded some 230gr lead with 5.3 and they seem to work fine.

 

[Rule3]

I just looked in the Lyman manual. Those sure are similar bullets. I do not think you can go wrong with 5.0 grains HP38/W231 to start. That's were I would go.

 

[monroe]

COAL gets a bit fuzzy when using SWC shapes. Many will tell you to leave about a thumb nail width (1/32") of the bullet's shoulder above the case mouth to start (this ends up being .093" from the case head to the bullet's shoulder) then check/tweak via the "plunk test".

 

[Rule3]

COAL gets a bit fuzzy when using SWC shapes. Many will tell you to leave about a thumb nail width (1/32") of the bullet's shoulder above the case mouth to start (this ends up being .093" from the case head to the bullet's shoulder) then check/tweak via the "plunk test".

Yep. Just a tiny difference in seating depth or OAL makes the difference between feeding or not.

When I first started loading I gave up on SWC in the 45 ACP it was such a PITA. Would work in one gun and then not in another. I still don't like them. I just as sone use FN or RN. They make fine holes for me.
I guess in competition you need those exact paper punch holes.

 

[Coastie762]

Another vote for 5.0 grains of 231/HP38 with a 200 grain LSWC of various makes.

You can use your barrel to determine the proper seating length. Adjust your seating die until the base of the loaded round is flush with the edge of the barrel hood.

The exact depth will vary depending the bullet used and barrel, I usually end up with a COL of 1.235-1.250" with the LSWC.

 

[Moonman]

I load a 200 grain PENN BULLETS LSWC (H&G 68 design) 45ACP with 4.7 grains of (W.S.T.) Winchester Super Target

at a C.O.L. of 1.250, Federal Primed, Starline, Federal, or Wilson cased.

Assembled on a Dillon Square D Press and fired from a Les Baer Wad gun.

Very ACCURATE and MUCH CLEANER that the Bullseye I used before.

I'm working up a load in 9mm with LSWC using VV N340, VERY CLEAN and the loads are starting to group.

Not much info available with this Powder/Bullet Combo.

The tests are continuing. FUN-FUN-FUN.

This 9mm is being tested in a Stock/Off The Shelf FN FNX-9, 4" barrel, 17+1.

It's just a stock firearm not a RACE-GUN configuration.

I started very low with a PENN BULLET, 3.6 grains in a 115 grain 9mm LSWC and began advancing .1 grain at a time with the loading.

When I'm done with the 9, I may just give the VV powders a try with the 45 ACP round next.