460 PC Bone Collector Cylinder issue ?

[jfmnh]

Hi Folks,

I have been lurking on this forum for while, but this is my first post.

I recently received the new 460 bone collector. When i got it home i noticed that there are marks on both the frame top strap and on the top of each chamber of the cylinder. At first i thought it was just gas cutting, but closer inspection seems to indicate that the cylinder is coming into contact with the frame. This seems like an issue to me. I sent the pictures to SW and got an email back saying it is normal since there is a lot of movement due to the high pressures. But i thought i would solicit opinions.

Here are the pictures.

Thank you for looking.
-John

 

[mikey460sw]

Wow that really stinks!! What a nice gun and its getting marked up shooting It .For what you paid for it I would think it won't do that and s&w would make it right!!

 

[jfmnh]

Thanks for the reply mikey460sw, The thing is i have not put a shot thru it. That is the way that it came from the Performance Center ...

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Are you certain that the cylinder is somehow coming into contact with the frame???

Maybe it's my older laptop with non-hd screen.. But what I am seeing looks like nothing more than the normal spots of fouling found on the outside of the cylinder and top strap over the forcing cone after shooting...

Can you clean the black fouling off and report back as to what you find underneath?

 

[Rpg]

If the OP's photos accurately reflect the condition of a revolver S&W claims is 'new', there is a BIG issue.

To claim such a thing came out of a reputable firearms manufacturer is simply silly.

 

[jfmnh]

RIDE-RED The marks on the cylinder are deep scratches, not fouling. When i look at them with a magnifying glass they all have the same pattern and the pattern matches the tooling marks on the top strap which also has the same cone shaped mark.

 

[jfmnh]

If the OP's photos accurately reflect the condition of a revolver S&W claims is 'new', there is a BIG issue.

To claim such a thing came out of a reputable firearms manufacturer is simply silly.

The photos accurately reflect the condition of the revolver that i purchased from a reputable dealer that claims it is brand new. To my knowledge the revolver has never been fired by anyone other than the folks at the Performance Center.

 

[Rpg]

Totally unacceptable!!!!

We hear lots of complements for S&W customer service.

If they don't fix this fast, there is a big problem.

Too bad S&W has sacrificed quality to such an extent. Claiming that this is fine is silly.

Fix it S&W!!!

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

RIDE-RED The marks on the cylinder are deep scratches, not fouling. When i look at them with a magnifying glass they all have the same pattern and the pattern matches the tooling marks on the top strap which also has the same cone shaped mark.

Roger that.

Sounds like I need to upgrade to a laptop with a larger and HD screen.

Being as you see a matching wear pattern I agree... Get it on it's way back to Springfield for evaluation and repair.

 

[F75gunslinger]

I would say try some mothers mag polish and see if it is just fouling from the few shots they take to test fire it. It may be that the cylinder and top strap are close enough together that the normal carbon build-up takes a different form within the closer tolerance ?

 

[Irn-Bru]

When dropping $1000+(just a rough guess) Smith should be double checking everything that leaves the performance center. There's NO excuse for that leaving the factory. It's a sad day when S&W are blowing off customers with paper thin excuses. If S&W didn't have such a deep history of superb quality, there name would be in the toilet by now with what they are churning out.

 

[F75gunslinger]

I believe the bone collector 460 is closer to $2k than $1k. Sad if it actually.is an issue...but I don't think it is.

 

[SAWMAN]

Call S&W they will immediately email you a return label... You will have it back 1-2 weeks.

 

[ruggyh]

^^^^^^^SAWMAN is spot on ^^^^^^

The cylinder is not right.

The top inside of the top looks like fowling from the factory test shooting- the don't typically wipe them down as proof of test firing.

Congrats on your purchase
It sad they let the cylinder out of the factory.

What Serial # did you get?

 

[jfmnh]

^^^^^^^SAWMAN is spot on ^^^^^^

The cylinder is not right.

The top inside of the top looks like fowling from the factory test shooting- the don't typically wipe them down as proof of test firing.

Congrats on your purchase
It sad they let the cylinder out of the factory.

What Serial # did you get?

I got #71 of 1500

 

[Watchdog]

Didn't this gun run you about $1700, maybe a bit more? I'm not buying into what the S&W person told you. Send it back.

 

[jfmnh]

Didn't this gun run you about $1700, maybe a bit more? I'm not buying into what the S&W person told you. Send it back.

A little less than $1700 but not by much. It is heading back to SW for a closer look.

 

[Bearbait in NM]

FWIW,

I have a Colt Single Action that has a similar relieved or cut area in the top strap, directly behind the forcing cone. With lead bullets, I get marks similar to your's (cylinder) on my cylinder. The gases/lead/lube fouling gets deflected from the cut out, and gets deposited on the cylinder in the pattern of the cut-out on the top strap. There is no rubbing going on, with my gun.

Not sure whether the cut out area on your top strap is by design, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the marks on your cylinder are fouling. I could also get the same type of marks on my 625 cylinder from the scope/sight mounting hole from deflected gasses, when using really "dirty" ammo.

Craig

 

[one eye joe]

If the OP's photos accurately reflect the condition of a revolver S&W claims is 'new', there is a BIG issue.

To claim such a thing came out of a reputable firearms manufacturer is simply silly.

I AM TOTALLY DISENCHANTED WITH THE PC FIREARMS, AND I POSTED THEM AS MY CHOICE FOR "MOST OVER RATED" FIREARMS ON ANOTHER THREAD. I WOULD DEMAND A SHIPPING LABEL AND RETURN THIS ABOMINATION TO S&W, FOR REMEDY, REPLACEMENT, OR REFUND...

 

[jfmnh]

FWIW,

I have a Colt Single Action that has a similar relieved or cut area in the top strap, directly behind the forcing cone. With lead bullets, I get marks similar to your's (cylinder) on my cylinder. The gases/lead/lube fouling gets deflected from the cut out, and gets deposited on the cylinder in the pattern of the cut-out on the top strap. There is no rubbing going on, with my gun.

Not sure whether the cut out area on your top strap is by design, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the marks on your cylinder are fouling. I could also get the same type of marks on my 625 cylinder from the scope/sight mounting hole from deflected gasses, when using really "dirty" ammo.

Craig

Craig,

Thank you for the insightful post. That is what i suspected when i first noticed the marks. However the marks are actually deep scratches not just fouling.

 

[mikey460sw]

If you send your 460 back to s&w hope they fix the problem for you. If you do send it back hope you will let us know what they say or do about the problem. I know it stinks to have to send it back. My 460 xvr PC is there right now on a recall for a bad "BARREL"! I feel your pain if it has to go back. Good luck

 

[Bearbait in NM]

JF,

Thanks for the reply. Just wanted to be sure that you or anyone having a similar situation double checks to make sure. I have seen more than a few posts on various forums about "odd" marks found on cylinders, after firing.

I find it hard to believe that you would get enough movement in the yoke/cylinder/frame to actually imprint the cylinder. And as it appears you have not fired the gun, it is even more strange. This would tend to indicate that the proof firing at S&W caused these.

Not sure what the factory procedure is for clean-up after proofing, and possibly they thought it was just fouling, and let it pass out the door. There is no way I would find acceptable their answer that marring of the cylinder when shooting the gun is normal or acceptable. Not at that location.

Good luck getting it cleared up with S&W.

Craig

 

[jfmnh]

JF,

Thanks for the reply. Just wanted to be sure that you or anyone having a similar situation double checks to make sure. I have seen more than a few posts on various forums about "odd" marks found on cylinders, after firing.

I find it hard to believe that you would get enough movement in the yoke/cylinder/frame to actually imprint the cylinder. And as it appears you have not fired the gun, it is even more strange. This would tend to indicate that the proof firing at S&W caused these.

Not sure what the factory procedure is for clean-up after proofing, and possibly they thought it was just fouling, and let it pass out the door. There is no way I would find acceptable their answer that marring of the cylinder when shooting the gun is normal or acceptable. Not at that location.

Good luck getting it cleared up with S&W.

Craig

Yea, the yoke/cylinder/frame would have to move a significant amount to cause the cylinder to contact the frame. A friend suggested that perhaps the top of the cylinder is expanding enough to cause the contact, that does not make me feel any better ...

This is what i got back from customer service.


"Dear Customer,

it is normal as the extreme pressures will cause some movement when shot.

Smith & Wesson values all of its consumers and are happy to have assisted you to the best of our ability today. Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require further assistance."


The gun has been shipped back to SW.

 

[Bearbait in NM]

JF,

Cylinders do expand at firing. The cylinder also move back and forth, and the yoke does as well. But these movements should be so small as to not cause something like that. If the cylinder was that much out of alignment at firing, the cylinder throats would likely be so out of alignment with the forcing cone that the gun would be mostly a lead/particle spitting hand grenade, me thinks.

If everyone who shot a high pressure revolver had frame/cylinder contact at that point, we sure would have a lot of posts asking about the flat spot dents on these revolvers. Their reply is so silly as to be embarrassing.

Craig

 

[jfmnh]

JF,

Cylinders do expand at firing. The cylinder also move back and forth, and the yoke does as well. But these movements should be so small as to not cause something like that. If the cylinder was that much out of alignment at firing, the cylinder throats would likely be so out of alignment with the forcing cone that the gun would be mostly a lead/particle spitting hand grenade, me thinks.

If everyone who shot a high pressure revolver had frame/cylinder contact at that point, we sure would have a lot of posts asking about the flat spot dents on these revolvers. Their reply is so silly as to be embarrassing.

Craig

Craig,

I agree completely.

It is frustrating to be in this situation with such an expensive revolver. I will provide an update when i hear from Smith.

-John

 

[9mmsubgun-m11]

Similar experience when I first called about my 929 timing issue. When cocking the hammer slowly the cylinder would not lock on any chamber. With a little force while cocking the cylinder would lock every time. First call to S&W was told that was normal for a lot of their revolvers-REALLY??

 

[686-380]

Man, that's unfortunate. Makes me glad I'm not going to invest in the Bone Collector.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

I think that maybe before any more hand wringing and lamenting that maybe people should wait and see what S&W does. It hasn't even yet been confirmed that there is a problem by a independent gunsmith or S&W.

Give em a chance guys for cripes sake!

ANYTHING mass produced will have some with issues get to the customer....

Sorry if I am not taking my seat on the bash-wagon.

 

[SLT223]

Me thinks the person you spoke to at S&W had brain damage. The cylinder should not be contacting the top strap for any reason. You need to call them back and talk to some else.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Bump for an update.

It's been over 2 weeks since the past post here. Seems like you may have heard something by now??

I sent my 460 in for work last November that S&W covered in warrantee. Trunaround time was less than 2 weeks from the time it left my doorstep to the time it arrived back home.