4th gen 4516

[18DAI]

There have been quite a few 4516 threads over the last week or so. It caused me to peruse some older threads by BMCM and admired his fine craftsmanship. And I lusted after his melonite 4516-1 AGAIN!

Then I went to annual qualifications and qualified with my 4516-3 again, shooting a perfect score. While there I got to examine another investigators Springfield Champion. A 7+1 1911 with a 4 inch tube. All stainless. Nice gun, for a 1911.

But it got me to thinking about what would a current production 4516, a 4th gen example, look like and have in the way of features.

I would imagine that there would be some weight reduction as this was always the knock against the later 4516s. Maybe some slide cuts ala Shorty 45. Reduced safety/decock paddles, maybe only a single side unit vice the ambi.

I would think that it would be thinner. Maybe not 1911 thin, but thin as the original 4516 no dash. I think Novak low mounts would still be atop the slide as they are simply very easy to use and the original 4516 was the first s&w pistol to sport them.

Maybe they could cram one more round in the mags too. I noticed that the Investigators Springfield Champion I examined had 8 round mags made by Wolfe. I didn't know they made anything besides springs. Perhaps a few of us should Email Wolfe to produce us some nice new mags for our compact 3rd gen 45's. 8+1 in the 4516 would be very nice indeed. Oh, round the base on the mag like on the 6 round early 4513TSWs. Makes the gun feel much better in the hand.

I suppose the finish would be melonite as "tactical" black appears to be the preference of modern gun buyers. Personally I always liked a silver pistol as I WANTED the mope I was pointing it at to see it clearly. But there is something just right about a black 4516.

Oh well, thats my pipe dream for a 4th gen 4516. I dont ever see it being made, by s&w anyway. Maybe Pietta will eventually make a copy of some of the 3rd gen guns as they are now doing with the Python revolver.

Or maybe a craftsman like BMCM will have some extra time on his hands and a used 4516 no dash sitting around. Regards 18DAI

 

[RSBH44]

There have been quite a few 4516 threads over the last week or so. It caused me to peruse some older threads by BMCM and admired his fine craftsmanship. And I lusted after his melonite 4516-1 AGAIN!

Then I went to annual qualifications and qualified with my 4516-3 again, shooting a perfect score. While there I got to examine another investigators Springfield Champion. A 7+1 1911 with a 4 inch tube. All stainless. Nice gun, for a 1911.

But it got me to thinking about what would a current production 4516, a 4th gen example, look like and have in the way of features.

I would imagine that there would be some weight reduction as this was always the knock against the later 4516s. Maybe some slide cuts ala Shorty 45. Reduced safety/decock paddles, maybe only a single side unit vice the ambi.

I would think that it would be thinner. Maybe not 1911 thin, but thin as the original 4516 no dash. I think Novak low mounts would still be atop the slide as they are simply very easy to use and the original 4516 was the first s&w pistol to sport them.

Maybe they could cram one more round in the mags too. I noticed that the Investigators Springfield Champion I examined had 8 round mags made by Wolfe. I didn't know they made anything besides springs. Perhaps a few of us should Email Wolfe to produce us some nice new mags for our compact 3rd gen 45's. 8+1 in the 4516 would be very nice indeed. Oh, round the base on the mag like on the 6 round early 4513TSWs. Makes the gun feel much better in the hand.

I suppose the finish would be melonite as "tactical" black appears to be the preference of modern gun buyers. Personally I always liked a silver pistol as I WANTED the mope I was pointing it at to see it clearly. But there is something just right about a black 4516.

Oh well, thats my pipe dream for a 4th gen 4516. I dont ever see it being made, by s&w anyway. Maybe Pietta will eventually make a copy of some of the 3rd gen guns as they are now doing with the Python revolver.

Or maybe a craftsman like BMCM will have some extra time on his hands and a used 4516 no dash sitting around. Regards 18DAI

Pass the pipe. I'll have me some of that ! My 4516-2 is rapidly becoming my all time favorite range gun.

 

[GaryS]

I hope this isn't a dumb question, but why not an alloy frame to reduce weight? Which of course would make it a 4513. Maybe Scandium!

Based on what my 457 is, I think a Melonite slide would be fine with a better coating on the frame. After all that technology has improved.

I suppose I'll go off the rails and suggest a frame mounted decocker, which would make it a 4533 (I think).

I guess I defeated the purpose of your original post 18DAI.

Besides, S&W seems to have made it clear that they have no interest in making anything like the 3rd Gen guns. Their forging capability is reserved for revolver and 1911 frames.

 

[BMCM]

got me to thinking about what would a current production 4516, a 4th gen example, look like and have in the way of features.

Just so happens I've been brewing up some ideas about that very thing and ... Now that I have a milling machine in the house some of those ideas may soon become reality. I'll be trying out some cosmetic enhancements and a functional thing or two on some of my toys soon. Still acquiring tooling for the machine as $ permits. Off the top of my head... mimic the slide cuts a la Shorty45, some tasteful ball end milling along the lines of Charles Kelsey's Devel customs, some slide top serrations and a few other ideas partially formed rattling around in my brain housing group.

Cheers
Bill

 

[03Fatboy]

We don't have deep enough pockets to attract the ears of S&W and I don't think they follow the forum threads here to hear our desires. So many great ideas for them to capture and make something again with a modern twist. What an opportunity!

Looking forward to seeing your ideas come to life BMCM. I have a donor slide if needed as well.

 

[TTSH]

Just so happens I've been brewing up some ideas about that very thing and ... Now that I have a milling machine in the house some of those ideas may soon become reality.

What??? Are you saying that all those mystical magical magnificent things you've done so far have all been done without a milling machine???

You've got to be kidding us, right?

 

[Hill_Country]

I hope this isn't a dumb question, but why not an alloy frame to reduce weight? Which of course would make it a 4513. Maybe Scandium!

Based on what my 457 is, I think a Melonite slide would be fine with a better coating on the frame. After all that technology has improved.

I suppose I'll go off the rails and suggest a frame mounted decocker, which would make it a 4533 (I think).

I guess I defeated the purpose of your original post 18DAI.

Besides, S&W seems to have made it clear that they have no interest in making anything like the 3rd Gen guns. Their forging capability is reserved for revolver and 1911 frames.

I like your thinking - a 457 with a Melonite slide, keep everything else the same. Supposedly the value line slide profile is less expensive to manufacture and I see no functional difference. The alloy frame is so easy to touch up there's no need to change a thing there. Keep it simple so Smith can't claim it is to expensive to manufacture.

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

Now your talking! (Or is it writing? )

I sure would like one of those to go with my 4516-2.

BMCM, Looking forward to the threads.

TTSH, He's just plain magic.

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

Just so happens I've been brewing up some ideas about that very thing and ... Now that I have a milling machine in the house some of those ideas may soon become reality. I'll be trying out some cosmetic enhancements and a functional thing or two on some of my toys soon. Still acquiring tooling for the machine as $ permits. Off the top of my head... mimic the slide cuts a la Shorty45, some tasteful ball end milling along the lines of Charles Kelsey's Devel customs, some slide top serrations and a few other ideas partially formed rattling around in my brain housing group.

Cheers
Bill

I could sacrifice for the greater good of the forum and send you my 4516-2 slide and some tooling for you to practice on....since I'm such a nice guy and all.

 

[nocents]

18DAI I like the way you think....but GaryS hit pretty close to my dream gun....a scandium frame shorty 45....slide cuts,no billboards,single side decock/safety lever, low profile tritium sites,yessery bob that would do it......................and now I am going out to get that winning super lotto ticket too

 

[Jaymo]

I say bring it back just as it was.

As far as steel versus alloy frame goes, I'll take steel.

 

[Fastbolt]

I'd suspect most of the changes would either be internal, where you couldn't easily see them, or subtle ones that wouldn't necessarily catch the eye upon a casual glance.

A couple of "pre-broken" stress spots inside the slide, which started appearing on TSW's I was seeing arrive in recent years.

The slide no longer requiring a clearance cut for the ambi lever to be removed (newer 4566/13TSW's received that change).

Barrel lug no longer being machined all the way around, and the refinements on the feedramp machining, chamber mouth & roll-over point. I saw that start between one new 4566TSW received, and the next (and some new spare barrels).

Tolerances and machining have been increasingly improved and tightened, and it wouldn't have surprised me to have discovered that at some point the extractor would've become virtually a drop-in part (still checked with gauging, of course). The extractor spring for the .45's had already settled down at a standard recommended spring, unlike the 9's & .40's which still have 3 springs listed ("standard" production spring, and 2 optional ones, if needed).

They'd already been shipping 4513/66's with the 1-piece machined steel guide rods, phasing out the staked 2-piece units, so any "new" revision of the 4516 would get the same one.

Any further "slimming" of the slide would probably continue to be done to the entire slide, so it would be incremental and unnoticeable (meaning probably not like on the PC guns).

Since the full-size 9/.40/.45 TSW's were essentially offered to agencies with a choice of either the riveted accessory rail or the machined integral rail, toward the end of their cataloging, they'd probably do the same thing with a new 4516. Might require 2 different styles, one with the machined rail and one with the smooth dustcover (versus just plugging a couple holes and still having the cuts for the rail present). Why not? It's just an operation done on a CNC machine, and runs could be programmed however they wanted.

The Melonite QP treatment was replaced a couple years ago with their own in-house treatment, according to whwat I've heard. I've seen it listed as black, Maximum Corrosion Resistant (MCR®); Black - Corrosion Resistant Finish; and Durable, Hard Coating – 68HRc. No fanfare, but apparently they tired of out-sourcing the work and essentially paying royalties to use the Melonite branded process. Now they can offer it to other guns companies, too.

Not sure how they could further improve the .45 3rd gen mags, though. (Maybe another tweak at the lips? The weld's already been pretty optimized.) The Wolff 1911 mags you saw have been made for them at different times by a couple of different companies. The current ones, last I heard, are made for them by ACT-MAG (who also make mags for Novak and S&W), although Wolff uses their Extra-Power spring for their marked units. They were available in both 7 & 8-rd capacities on the full-size 1911's (I've received both), with the 8-rd version having the longer body to accept the extra round. Of course, traditionalists often like to stick with the 7-rd mag box.

I like GaryS's idea of a Scandium aluminum frame option, but beware that it would significantly boost the cost. I remember being told when the idea of a Scandium 4003TSW was briefly floated for the CHP, and was told that the cost would be higher than for the all-steel 4006's.

I've always wanted to see a 3913SC or a 3913TSW/SC (or a 3916, for that matter), and a 4513TSW/SC (or just a 4513SC, since they could play with model names any way they wanted, as they've always done ) would be ... interesting.

Having carried an issued 4566TSW in my plainclothes assignment, I much preferred changing over to carrying a 4013TSW, followed by a 4513TSW and then a 3913TSW, simply for the lighter weights. I'd make an exception for a 3916, but maybe not for a 4516TSW.

Keep dreaming, though.

 

[GaryS]

I think they used "0" for the last digit if the frame is Scandium.
So, it would likely be a 4510TSWEIEIO.

Or something. It's all a dream, so we can design anything we want since they aren't going to build it.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Having switched from compact S&W45xxs to the Sig 245 for a compact carry .45.... back in the mid 90s..........because of the 4516s weight or the lack of 6rd 4513TS&W magazines........

"I don't feel your pain!"

and

"still happy after all these years!"

LOL

 

[nocents]

BAM-BAM...I don't have near the seat time with my P245 as you but did you ever feel like the P245 was "unbalanced".....or maybe better stated as muzzle heavy....not heavy overall...but just less weight out front and maybe a little more "junk in the trunk" as it were.....I have tried 3 different types of grips and settled right back with stock Sig grips........it may just be my perception as I am used to the best balanced gun ever made.....a 3913NL

 

[BAM-BAM]

With an empty mag...... yes it feels muzzle heavy..... loaded.... I'm OK with the balance.

I ended up stippling a set of factory grips....... I like the Hogue wood grips but..... a bit thick...... thought about a set of G-10 grips but a bit pricey.


I'm with you I carry a 3913 +95% of the time..... the Sig .45 is a winter, outdoors carry, under a coat in a Miami Vice style shoulder rig......1/2 zip down and draw.... 2 spare 8rd mags on the off side.

Other than factory what grips have you tried......other than Hogue's??????

 

[GaryS]

Regarding grips. I wasn't happy with the factory grips on my 3913TSW, but the Hogues were worse. I bought some GT-5000 Grip Tape Amazon. I made the pattern I wanted, cut the tape to fit, and have been happy for several months now. It sticks well to the factory grips and gives a good gripping surface for my hands.

 

[nocents]

With an empty mag...... yes it feels muzzle heavy..... loaded.... I'm OK with the balance.

I ended up stippling a set of factory grips....... I like the Hogue wood grips but..... a bit thick...... thought about a set of G-10 grips but a bit pricey.




Other than factory what grips have you tried......other than Hogue's??????

I tried on some G 10's at a local GS and probably would have bought them for the asking price of 80 bucks.....if they had been black.....but green wasn't working for me....also tried the Sig rosewood.....looked great but a lot of girth.....so I may order the black G10 Pirahna's .........................................GaryS ....I did like your custom tape panels on the factory grip idea to the point that I copied it but used a sheet of rubber Talon grip material....a little pricey but there is enough that I did 2 sets of less than pristine grips

 

[Fastbolt]

Regarding grips. I wasn't happy with the factory grips on my 3913TSW, but the Hogues were worse. I bought some GT-5000 Grip Tape Amazon. I made the pattern I wanted, cut the tape to fit, and have been happy for several months now. It sticks well to the factory grips and gives a good gripping surface for my hands.

Sometimes a subtle change is more than enough to accommodate someone's needs.

While I can easily find a suitable grip insert to work with my M&P's I've never been quite content with the standard size 99 (gun) series backstraps. There's just too much of a "hump" at the wrong spot against my palm. Seasonal changes in the weather can change how my palm feels it, too. I've gone back and forth between the medium & small for many years.

Now, the compact version? The larger backstrap insert fits me like it was designed around my hand. '

Back when I first bought my 3913 and 4513TSW, I installed Hogue grips on both. It worked perfectly for me at that time. (I had to modify the Hogue panels to fit the cutaway grip of the 4513TSW, since they never made any for the early TSW compacts.) Then, sometime last year, I discovered that the factory grips for both actually felt "better" to my hand during live-fire than the Hogues. Go figure, right?

 

[GaryS]

The Hogues on my 6906 make that gun feel like an extension of my hand. Sometimes I even shoot that way.

My pre rail 3913TSW came with Hogues modified as you describe. The problem was that they pushed the middle finger of my right hand into the trigger guard in such a way that it almost cut the finger when I shot. Putting the factory grips on cured that, but the grip was a bit slippery. The grip tape fixed that.

There are too many hand sizes and shapes for any manufacturer to make grips that will work well for everyone. I found that oversized grips on my round butt K frame guns didn't improve my shooting, but putting regular combat grips with a Tyler T adapter did.

Good grips are probably as, if not more, important than holsters to find. Which is probably why there are always holsters and grips in the classifieds.

Sometimes a subtle change is more than enough to accommodate someone's needs.

While I can easily find a suitable grip insert to work with my M&P's I've never been quite content with the standard size 99 (gun) series backstraps. There's just too much of a "hump" at the wrong spot against my palm. Seasonal changes in the weather can change how my palm feels it, too. I've gone back and forth between the medium & small for many years.

Now, the compact version? The larger backstrap insert fits me like it was designed around my hand. '

Back when I first bought my 3913 and 4513TSW, I installed Hogue grips on both. It worked perfectly for me at that time. (I had to modify the Hogue panels to fit the cutaway grip of the 4513TSW, since they never made any for the early TSW compacts.) Then, sometime last year, I discovered that the factory grips for both actually felt "better" to my hand during live-fire than the Hogues. Go figure, right?