5 inch barrel

[tacticalshooter]

This is my first S&W, an M&P from the 20's. I keep seeing auctions highlighting how uncommon/rare/desirable the 5" barrel is on these. Any truth to that, or is it pretty much just fluff to drive up the bids? I was thinking of polishing the Cordial Rhythm And Poetry out of it. (Was going to use the acronym instead, but evidently that word is censored...?)

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Folks like the balance of the 5" barrels, but it doesn't seem to factor heavily in added value. The Standard Catalog doesn't give a premium to 5" over 4 or 6". Is yours a round or square butt?

 

[Babysitr]

Welcome to the forum, nice revolver! seems to me that 5" was rather common on the early M&P

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

I'm really fond of 5" barreled revolvers.

 

[Modified]

The 5" barrel is as people have noted, pretty common fixed sight M&Ps.

It is however uncommon on target sighted guns, and very desirable. You might be mixing up N and K frames however, as 5" N frame target guns are considered by many to be about the most desirable of all Smith & Wessons and very scarce (especially pre-war).

 

[Art Doc]

Not an expert but I think 5" barrel M&Ps have always been less common than 4 or 6. Bought this 10-7 new in 1979. Paid $133. It's had exactly 6 rounds fired through it.

Wait, this is pre 62 forum. Here's a 1942 VM 38 Special with a 1939 commercial 5" barrel swapped on. Total investment $65.

 

[JP@AK]

Not an expert but I think 5" barrel M&Ps have always been less common that 4 or 6.

I think that is generally true. But, it does not appear to be the case in the brief S prefix period (1946-1948). My research shows the 6" to be the least common among those M&Ps. The highest count is of 4" barrels (naturally), with 5" being the second most common.

It is an interesting period to study, for lots of reasons.

 

[Waveski]

Welcome Tac.

That is a nice old M&P you have there. Hard to tell much from the one image , but it looks as though there is a fairly nicely developed patina to the finish.

Your gun , not mine but --- PLEASE do not rush into polishing that revolver! You would quickly eliminate the patina that was many decades in the making , and then you would have exposed steel.
I own a 5" M&P from about 1909 - and I wish the finish looked like yours.

Elsewhere , those target grips look way out of context with the gun , but I bet they shoot function real well for shooting. FITZ , by any chance? If you wish to go more original , period appropriate grip panels can be found , check E-bay. Lots of repros out there too , but the newness would stick out sharply.

 

[Absalom]

I think that is generally true. But, it does not appear to be the case in the brief S prefix period (1946-1948). My research shows the 6" to be the least common among those M&Ps. The highest count is of 4" barrels (naturally), with 5" being the second most common.

With the OP's gun being from the 1920s, I am not sure that this applies.

I have no data to back this up, just some years of observation. The 4", 5", and 6" were always available, but it is my impression that the dominance of the 4" barrel is a phenomenon of the post-WW II years. The longer barrels were at least as common, if not more so, prior to the four years of nobody manufacturing .38 Special revolvers with anything but a 4" barrel (disregarding the minuscule number of 2" models).

Obviously, that could be a misperception; one would need to collect some data to confirm it.

 

[JP@AK]

With the OP's gun being from the 1920s, I am not sure that this applies.

Agreed. I was just responding to, 5" barrel M&Ps have always been less common than 4 or 6

it is my impression that the dominance of the 4" barrel is a phenomenon of the post-WW II years

This could be correct. As you say, we lack sufficient data to know for sure. But it is easy to get that impression. Available evidence shows a large number of 5" examples hanging around from the 1910 to 1930 period.

Less common are 5" target models, like this one from 1904.

 

[JP@AK]

I have to say that I enjoy this sort of speculative discussion. I'm grateful to Art Doc for bringing it up. Unfortunately, all we can do is ponder available evidence, since we do not have exhaustive knowledge of the past.

 

[handejector]

With the OP's gun being from the 1920s, I am not sure that this applies.

I have no data to back this up, just some years of observation. The 4", 5", and 6" were always available, but it is my impression that the dominance of the 4" barrel is a phenomenon of the post-WW II years. The longer barrels were at least as common, if not more so, prior to the four years of nobody manufacturing .38 Special revolvers with anything but a 4" barrel (disregarding the minuscule number of 2" models).

Obviously, that could be a misperception; one would need to collect some data to confirm it.

I agree. Before 1940, I would call the 5" M&P a very common barrel length, perhaps more common than 4". Also remember that it was a popular cop gun length, like the Louisville PD guns we see turn up here.


On another note-
I find it laughable that every 5" Pre 27, 27, and 27-2 on GB has the "RARE" 5" barrel.
I worked in a gun shop in the 70s and actively traded guns on the side then, and ever since. MOST of those models traded at the time were 5". The 3-1/2s were TURKEYS- loud, smoky, twisting, firebreathing little ______ that nobody wanted. You got beat to death when you traded one. The 6s, 6-1/2s, and 8-3/8s were too long to pack handily, so they were less common. Again, MOST of the 27 family floating around back then were 5s.

 

[Texas Star]

I asked an RCMP official why their Model 10's were fivers after police guns had trended toward four-inch. He didn't know, but guessed that someone in the Regina depot thought a good compromise, or that maybe recruits shot the longer ones better.

Overall. I think four-inch replaced longer barrels as cars replaced walking beat officers. Shorter barrels drag less on car seats for most cops.

 

[Modified]

I agree. Before 1940, I would call the 5" M&P a very common barrel length, perhaps more common than 4". Also remember that it was a popular cop gun length, like the Louisville PD guns we see turn up here.


On another note-
I find it laughable that every 5" Pre 27, 27, and 27-2 on GB has the "RARE" 5" barrel.
I worked in a gun shop in the 70s and actively traded guns on the side then, and ever since. MOST of those models traded at the time were 5". The 3-1/2s were TURKEYS- loud, smoky, twisting, firebreathing little ______ that nobody wanted. You got beat to death when you traded one. The 6s, 6-1/2s, and 8-3/8s were too long to pack handily, so they were less common. Again, MOST of the 27 family floating around back then were 5s.

And the reason they aren't floating around now is that no one is willing to give them up!

 

[rincar]

I have 3 5 inch revolvers. I have a1899 M&P a S&W 27-2 and a Colt Official police. I cant remember if I have any others. I think the 5 inch guns were often carried in plain clothes and on duty so one gun served 2 purposes. Remember back in the day Cops did not make much money. people dressed more dressed up the today. Coats Hats Ties and those baggy dress Pants were the norm.

 

[JP@AK]

Remember back in the day Cops did not make much money. people dressed more dressed up the today. Coats Hats Ties and those baggy dress Pants were the norm.

Interesting point. Recently, I watched the 1960 World Series on YouTube. The scans of the crowd showed most of the men wearing white shirts and ties - at a ballgame! I grew up in the 1950s and ties were standard wear for men, just about everywhere. I rarely saw my grandfather when he wasn't wearing a tie. Most of them were wool and I have a few of his that I still wear occasionally.

My grandfather passed away from a heart attack shortly before I left for 'Nam. When I returned two years later, they were just finishing up settling his estate and dad gave me a few of his ties. I have his picture on my dresser, and he is wearing his WWI American Expeditionary Forces uniform. No tie, but the uniform is woolen.

 

[NavySCPO]

Not the most pristine example, and a much newer version than yours (1957), but I love the way my 5" K38 shoots, and to my taste it's almost a perfect length, at least for me.

While this version of the K38 is not nearly as common as the 6" Masterpiece, it didn't seem to increase the value very much, if at all when I bought it.

Having said all that, I'm not a great pistol shot, even with an extra inch, but it sure is fun trying!

 

[tacticalshooter]

Standard Catalog doesn't give a premium to 5" over 4 or 6".

Ah well. It sparked some discussion, anyway.

Is yours a round or square butt?

Square.

You might be mixing up N and K frames

This is entirely possible.

1942 VM 38 Special with a 1939 commercial 5" barrel swapped on. Total investment $65.

Wow, what a steal! I paid $220 for this one.

Welcome Tac.
That is a nice old M&P you have there.

Thank you!

PLEASE do not rush into polishing that revolver

Ok, point taken. I was thinking about it from a "rare antique" standpoint, (i.e. none to speak of) but hadn't considered the protective aspects.

Elsewhere, those target grips look way out of context with the gun , but I bet they shoot function real well for shooting. FITZ , by any chance?

Took them off and on the inside they are marked "POINTER By W. Murad, San Carlos, CA, S&W 303"


I think I'll go for function over form in this instance - might look a little wonky, but I'm planning on taking it to the range as opposed to keeping it a shelf piece.

I have to say that I enjoy this sort of speculative discussion. I'm grateful to Art Doc for bringing it up.

And I will take full credit for providing the platform from which he could expound on said discussion

Coats Hats Ties and those baggy dress Pants were the norm.

I guess they would have considered me a hobo, then. I've never liked wearing a tie, and probably wouldn't have even back then

 

[tacticalshooter]

I love the way my 5" K38 shoots, and to my taste it's almost a perfect length, at least for me.

Good to know, seems like there are a few who prefer it

I'm not a great pistol shot, even with an extra inch, but it sure is fun trying!

Very much agreed

 

[Modified]

Looking at this new picture I have a bit of a question, probably just due to the pictures but I still feel like I should ask; is the barrel bulged?

It looks like something is a bit odd about the barrel right behind the end of the extractor.

 

[bondjamesbond]

I have this one from somewhere in the teens, pre heat treat

 

[bondjamesbond]

I'll wear a tie when they bury me

 

[Muley Gil]

I have this one from somewhere in the teens, pre heat treat

Nice looking old Smif. What happened to the screw heads? They are supposed to be round.

 

[glowe]

As for barrel lengths, there are enough guns in the SWCA database to make some valid observations.

38 M&Ps from 1910 to 1930 have the following percentages listed in the database:
3% - 2"
35% - 4"
20% - 5"
41% - 6"
1% - 6.5"

"S" prefix K frames from 1946 to 1948 have the following percantages:
2" - 18%
4" - 25%
5" - 33%
6" - 24%

Nothing seems to be scarce in the S prefix guns, while the 2" (3%) and 6.5" (1%) guns in the early K frames are likely scarce and the 6.5 might even be bordering on rare. It is my understanding that only a few early 38 M&Ps, 3rd Change revolvers were made with that long barrel, probably leftovers from pre-1910 2nd Change inventory.

 

[NavySCPO]

I agree. Before 1940, I would call the 5" M&P a very common barrel length, perhaps more common than 4". Also remember that it was a popular cop gun length, like the Louisville PD guns we see turn up here.


On another note-
I find it laughable that every 5" Pre 27, 27, and 27-2 on GB has the "RARE" 5" barrel.
I worked in a gun shop in the 70s and actively traded guns on the side then, and ever since. MOST of those models traded at the time were 5". The 3-1/2s were TURKEYS- loud, smoky, twisting, firebreathing little ______ that nobody wanted. You got beat to death when you traded one. The 6s, 6-1/2s, and 8-3/8s were too long to pack handily, so they were less common. Again, MOST of the 27 family floating around back then were 5s.

Lee, I can almost see the sarcasm dripping , but I'm still learning so I'll bite. From my limited observation, the Model 27 (or pre) in the 3.5" barrel seems to be the most desirable and highly valued. Every time I see one offered the price seems to go up, and they don't last long.

 

[JP@AK]

"S" prefix K frames from 1946 to 1948 have the following percantages:
2" - 18%
4" - 25%
5" - 33%
6" - 24%

Thanks, Gary.
I'd be interested in knowing how big that sample size is. My database accounts for more than 6,000 examples, and I get a different set of data.

Nothing seems to be scarce in the S prefix guns

Generally speaking, I would agree. The only caveat is if you break down the 2" guns into RB and SB. The RB examples seem to be far less common.

 

[Absalom]

Thanks, Gary.
I'd be interested in knowing how big that sample size is. My database accounts for more than 6,000 examples, and I get a different set of data.
....

Sometimes perceptions guide reality

Considering that the SCWA database was accumulated based on input from active members/collectors, there is a good chance the numbers are skewed by what was/is being considered more desirable/collectible.

 

[handejector]

Lee, I can almost see the sarcasm dripping , but I'm still learning so I'll bite. From my limited observation, the Model 27 (or pre) in the 3.5" barrel seems to be the most desirable and highly valued. Every time I see one offered the price seems to go up, and they don't last long.

Now, yes.

Then, no.

In the 70s, I would decline a trade on a 3-1/2" gun.

A friend brought one into the shop in 75 and wanted to trade it for one of my guns. I declined. He came back with it 3 or 4 days later. I still had the gun he wanted. He'd been trying to sell his 3-1/2. He was a cop and knew how to move guns. He said "Get me out of it." I said "I'm gonna hurt you." He said "Hurt me" and we traded. That was in Atlanta, which is not a small gun market. They were actually that hard to move back then. Anybody wanting to pack a 357 wanted a 2-1/2" 19 or 66.

The publicity given to 3-1/2 Reg Mags packed by G-Men and Lawmen before WW II, to a large extent done on this very board, have added the mystique to the 3-1/2" guns. BUT, don't forget, they didn't have a choice of a smaller, lighter magnum. How many would have chosen a 3-1/2" N frame to wear with a suit if a 2-1/2" K frame had been available?
The Mod 19, a smaller, lighter 357 came about largely through the recommendations of Bill Jordan, just about the LARGEST man that ever packed a gun all day, every day.

 

[Texas Star]

I handled a five-inch M-27 at the Dallas FBI field office on a HS field trip. The tour guide agent said the action hadn't been slicked to his knowledge, but it was a delight , a real step up from my only revolver, a Webley MK VI.

He said few agents wore N-frame .357's unless working an especially dangerous case. But he liked the heavy bbl. M-10, M-10-6.

An agent speaking to my class on a career day left his M-49 in his car, but told me it was his average day gun.

 

[glowe]

The whole exercise is an estimation at best. Whether there were hundreds or a few thousand in the sample size, both offer a small percentage of those models manufactured. It was merely to help the OP with his 5" question and to see if there were any scarce "S" numbered gun barrel lengths.

What is really sad is that people feel they have to keep their own private databases in the first place.