686 Cylinder Lock Up

Tdiver, don't blame your US made revolver for problems cause by cheap foreign ammunition. It is quite possible that your choice of ammunition is the problem. For example, have you measured the thickness of the rims of that ammunition and compared it to the American Eagle? Yeah, rim thickness does matter, because too thick can cause the cylinder to bind. Have you looked carefully do see if the primers are "backing out" during firing. Because that primers that sit slightly elevated from the case after firing will create drag on the recoil shield that can "lock" up the cylinder. BTW, this particular condition is actually caused by brass in the case that is over annealed and too soft and not really a primer issue even though it appears to be a loose primer.

Then there is a matter of technique when ejecting cases. This particular problem is something that I an VERY VERY well acquainted with because I seem to forget to eject my empties properly almost every time I shoot one of my revolvers at the range and almost always get caught by this mistake. The correct way to eject your empty cases is to point of the revolver straight up, open the cylinder, and give the ejector rod a brisk "pop" with the palm or base of the thumb. By doing this you insure that any stray powder particles in the cases are carried out of the cylinder without spilling out of the empty cases. If you get sloppy with your ejection you will eventually find you have some powder particles caught under the ejector star. When that happens your cases won't sit fully seated in the cylinder and you may find it difficult to even close the cylinder and if you force it you'll find enough drag you won't be able to pull the trigger. Note, I have been there done this so many times that I've lost count, so do not assume you are so "expert" that it couldn't happen to you, I started shooting revolvers in 1974.
 
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Good post Scooter. Hope the OP gets the problem figured out. Good reminder by Scooter on proper ejection technique.

Bad foreign ammo is real. The 686 is a very reliable handgun. So long as it shoots reputable ammo reliably I would not be concerned about the occasional lot of bad ammo that causes problems. Bad ammo is around; especially right now when ammo is in high demand, thereby sucking in sellers that most of us would probably avoid in more normal times.
 
A quick footnote:
Primers generally back out when the firing pin hits and are pushed back in when the main charge ignites and pushes the case back.
 
Scooter123... Not sure why you posted such an angry message? I never claimed to be "expert" at anything (so that is your assumption, not mine), and did mention in a subsequent post that it is likely the German-made ammo being used was likely causing the issue. I also noted that hotter, American made ammunition was not replicating the problem.

In the end, if I have other firearms that can operate using any ammo flawlessly regardless of country of manufacture, that is the one I will rely on. While I still have a sweet spot in my heart for this particular gun, as it was my first one purchased 30 years ago, being ammo sensitive won't make it my go-to anymore.
 
Maybe "angry" was the wrong term. Maybe "condescending" would have been a better choice. I also felt like I was being called out for proclaiming to be an expert, which I never did. Doesn't matter, I know which firearm I can rely on, no matter what. Have a good day everyone!
 
I never intended to be condescending. In fact I was admitting that in spite of shooting revolvers for over 40 years I still can't get it into my thick head that poor ejection technique results in dragging cylinders. With all those years of experience I should be an expert but for some reason in this particular aspect of revolver shooting I seem to be a perpetual newbie.

I'll also point out that IMO your problem most likely lies with your ammunition. Just to clarify what I think may be happening I will extend on what Joe44va pointed out. When the primer first ignites the initial pressure wave causes the primer to back out until it contacts the firing pin bushing and the case is driven forward until the rim contacts the cylinder. Basically the primer is sort of a piston being driven out of the case. Next the flame front from the primer gets through the flash hole and ignites the powder in the case. As the pressure rises the case expands until it contacts the walls of the chamber and the bullet starts to move. At this point the case is being held firmly in position by the pressure forcing the case wall into the chamber. After the bullet leaves the case and starts moving down the barrel the pressure starts to drop and at some point the case walls will "spring back" and the remaining pressure will cause the case to be driven back until the case head contacts the recoil shield and recapture that primer that was driven outwards by the initial ignition event.

Now, here is where case hardness and quality comes into play. If you have a case that is annealed too much it will take LESS pressure to keep the case locked in position in the cylinder. If that happens AND the bullet leaves the barrel before the case is released you will have a "high primer" that will tend to tie up the cylinder. Because the case won't be driven back into the recoil shield and recapture the primer. This is one way that ammunition can cause issues that logically seem to be a fault of the firearm.

So, what to do? One thing I would suggest is that you take up reloading. Not only will it allow you to shoot more but it will also allow you to have a larger degree of control over the quality of your ammunition. In addition if your sitting on a lot of that Geco ammunition you will be able to re-use the fired cases and actually work harden them enough to mitigate the problems you are experiencing. Because brass does work harden with firing cycles, theoretically until it becomes too brittle and splits. Note, you'll have to reload a 357 Magnum case 20 to 60 times before it gets too hard and with the lower operating pressure of 38 special it may take a hundred or more reload cycles with some brands of cases.

Finally, it is possible that you have some issue with your revolver that none of us has considered. However, the most common causes seem to have been well covered and eliminated. So, lets look into less common causes for excessive cylinder drag.

Number one for that would be a Barrel/Cylinder gap that is too small. As for how small, I run the B/C gap on my Dan Wesson 15-2 at 0.0035 inch and can fire well over 100 rounds without any hint of cylinder drag. I also have a 625JM with a B/C Gap of 0.0025 inch on a couple of chambers and it's never had issues with cylinder drag. So, based on my personal experience rather that Net ?Wisdom? lets say the lower limit is 0.004 inch just to play it safe. To test your B/C gap you start with an unloaded cylinder, close the cylinder, and then pull the cylinder lightly towards the rear while using valve clearance shims to determine the shim thickness where you get light drag on the shim fully inserted. Ideally you would want to see a gap in the 0.004 to 0.008 inch range but as tight as 0.003 inch and as loose as 0.012 inch is acceptable.

I'll also note that the condition called End Shake is done by pushing the cylinder towards the barrel and checking the B/C gap again. End shake is then determined to be the difference between the B/C gap with the cylinder forward and the cylinder rearward. End shake over 0.002 inch is considered excessive and should be corrected by either "stretching" the Yoke Tube or the installation of End Shake Shims.

Next up is the clearance between the recoil shield and rear face of the cylinder. This is best done using spark plug shims because they are thicker than valve setting shims. Based on the SAAMI specification (0.060-0.070) in an ideal world you would want to have this dimension to fall between 0.065 and 0.070 inch for a revolver that doesn't feature a cylinder recessed for the case rims. Note, the SAAMI minimum is 0.060 inch which is exactly equal to the SAAMI maximum for rim thickness, a condition that would cause drag with a zero End Shake setup, thus my preference for a bit of clearance. For a revolver with a recessed cylinder you'll want to find 6 cases with rims that measure as close to each other as possible, ideally with a rim thickness of 0.060 inch. Then you insert the cases into the cylinder and check the clearance between the rear face of the cases and the recoil shield. Ideally you'll want to see a clearance of at least 0.002 and max of 0.010 inch with 0.060 rim thickness or the mathematical equivalent if using a thinner case rim. As you can see this is one way where tolerances can stack up to create a problem with the firearm is perfectly within tolerance. Good news is these types of stackup situations are extremely rare. So rare that it's really just a theoretical possibility but it never hurts to check.

The last potential that I can think of is a bent Yoke causing a bind. In your described issues I believe that the chance of this being the cause is zero but it's worth looking at even if it's likely to be a waste of time. It's actually a rather simple check done with an empty cylinder. What you do is close the cylinder gently by pressing on the yoke at the point when it fits into the yoke recess under the barrel. Close until either the front or rear lock just engages. Then gently press on the rear of the cylinder by the recoil shield. If you hear a snick of the rear lock licking in the yoke is bent. If you hear nothing test the front locking point by opening and closing the cylinder by pressing it closed on the rear of the cylinder until a lock clicks in. Then press in at the yoke and listen for the front lock clicking in. Ideally in both tests you'll find both locks click in at the same time. However if one lock is "late" it's not really an issue of the force to engage the second lock is only in the 2-3 lbs. range. If it take a very firm push to get that second lock to engage you will want to have a qualified gunsmith correct it. BTW, most yokes that are "bent" are the result of a Previous Owner using a movie inspired flip of the wrist to close the cylinder, a practice commonly called Bogarting the revolver. I'll also note that for a bent yoke to cause the bind you have described it would really have to be very badly out of whack and this condition would not be resolved by changing to a different brand of ammunition. So, it's not likely at all to be the cause for your problem.

PS: I get my valve setting and spark plug shim sets at auto parts shops and they don't cost much and are handy to have when looking at a new revolver purchase.
 
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Wow... that was some follow up, Scooter. I appreciate the information and will take it all into consideration if my problem continues. In the meantime, I think I'll revert back to American Eagle, Winchester, or even Freedom Munitions loads, which haven't presented any issues in the past. Apologies if I came off as too sensitive about that "expert" remark you posted. Just a bit frustrated over the whole cylinder lock up issue. Thanks, again, for the insight and recommendations.
 
Don't shoot crappy ammo....

Went to the range on Wednesday to see whether the modification done by S&W worked. Well, for the first box of ammo it did. On the 2nd box (Geco 158 gr FMJ), round 58 & 74 locked the gun up.

Wrote to S&W and they said that the ammo I was shooting for the 2nd box is made overseas and not SAAMI compliant, so that's why I'm seeing this issue intermittently.

Any thoughts from the forum on this response? I've shot hotter loads without issue in the past. Is this a BS answer or is there some merit to it?

If you are using substandard ammo, I'll bet S&W is right. Buy some ammo that is known to be quality stuff and see if that doesn't fix the problem.

I don't even have the M, modification, but I use well known components. Primers being CCI, Winchester, Remington or bought ammo like Hornady or Speer. I can't make mine lock up.
 
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