686+ disappointment

[Nix45]

I don't think I'm transgressing the 'No Whining' rule--slap me if I am--but I am going to whine a bit. Bear with me.

I was seriously excited to pick up a new 686+ with a 3" barrel today (although not a fan of the trigger lock). My local, non-big-box, family owned, sporting goods store had one on sale today. I had wandered in for something else, but the sale caught my eye, and one hing led to another. You know how that goes.

I really liked this 686+. The balance and feel of the 3" barrel was excellent. The trigger seemed remarkably good. While the 686+ may be a bit bulky, I think it could be a carry pistol for me. I'm a wee bit short on ready cash right now, but that trigger felt really nice and it is in my favorite flavor and stainless will last forever and...yeah, I rationalized my way into a purchase. Joy.

Naturally I was off to the range as soon as I could get away. I loaded the 686+ with HPR 158 FMJ (because that's the factory stuff I had on hand) and proceeded to check the sights. Bang, bang, ***click***, uh....what's going on here?, ***click***, bang. Yes, it looked like light primer strikes. I fired a few more rounds and had a light primer strike every 4-5 rounds.

I switched to handloads. Winchester components. Again, light primer strikes with a failure every 5-6 rounds. I switched to another set of handloads, Starline brass + CCI primers + Berry plated 158's. Same thing, failure to fire, every 5-6 rounds.

The primers told the tale: light strikes.

So I hustled back to the LGS and got to talk with the gunsmith. He was baffled. He measured all the things he could, he compared my new 686+ to another one, he dry fired it, he cycled it with spent cases, he did everything he could. At the end of his earnest inspection, he thought the strain screw may have been a bit short and the trigger pull was light at around 10.5#.

So he replaced the screw and now the trigger is 12#. It feels more like 12#. When I decided to buy this particular pistol, I think it was because the trigger felt so good. I know 1.5# is not a big deal, but it just doesn't feel the same at 12#. And I was already shooting a little low-left.

I'm going back to the range tomorrow with some Winchester white box and some more handloads. Hopefully we're firing on all cylinders, as they say. But it's not the same pistol I fell in love with this morning: my confidence is shaken and the trigger feels...heavy.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

Umm. Yeah. 12+ pounds DA is about normal. 4-4.5#s SA is about normal. Ive seen them put short strain screws and shaved trigger springs..........doesn't happen always, but on yours it did...
Look at what happened to mine. My 686+ went out of time after 150 factory loads (mostly winchester and Federal ). It was very bothersome to see primer strikes on the rim of the cartridge!
I still have my 686 and it has proceeded to shoot "thousands of excellent rounds...."
Check your barrel for it to be canted in any way. If you have to take it back , you can also tell them it shoots to the left? After doing a windage/elevation adjustment.

 

[Neumann]

12# is light for a stock 686. 13.5# is more typical.

Neumann Rule #1 - if the trigger pull is too good to be true, it is! Check the strain screw. At least three have been half a turn out, one of them new in the box.

I have two performance center revolvers with 10# and 10.5# DA triggers (and tight strain screws). In addition to being light, there is no tactile staging in the trigger.

 

[Nix45]

...I have two performance center revolvers with 10# and 10.5# DA triggers (and tight strain screws). In addition to being light, there is no tactile staging in the trigger.

Any suggestions on how to get my 12# trigger back to 10# and still maintain 100% reliability? (Assuming I now have 100% reliability.)

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

Like all tools, firearms need adjustment and maintenance to function.

 

[Nix45]

...
Check your barrel for it to be canted in any way. If you have to take it back , you can also tell them it shoots to the left? After doing a windage/elevation adjustment.

Whoa!? Canted? How do I check for that? I suspect it's just that I need to work on the fundamentals of DA shooting. I've been shooting 1911's more recently and those can make anyone look like a decent shooter. DA is another ball game.....of course, even in SA it was still hitting low & left. Or should I say, "I was hitting low and left"?

 

[Nix45]

Like all tools, firearms need adjustment and maintenance to function.

Hints? I like revolvers because they are (have been) so darn reliable. I've never had a revolver malfunction like this before. I'll try the new strain screw and setting tomorrow; maybe it is adjusted just right now. But, I have to ask, why didn't it come from the factory working correctly and 100% reliable? At this price point, even on sale, I expect a pistol that works. I've never seen a cheap plastic Glock fail in the first 7 rounds. Twice.

I understand that my 60 year-old .38 S&W Terrier may not be perfectly reliable now (although it always has been). I'm willing to give it some slack. But a brand-new 686+ in the age of CNC machining and modern metalurgy? C'mon...

 

[rwsmith]

I'm a suspicious son of a gun.....

Could store owners be loosening the strain screw so that people will buy guns for the 'nice trigger'?

I haven't measure my pull but I don't get light strikes and the action is silky smooth in double action and single action is ALMOST like breaking a glass rod.

I don't want a 'trigger job' done because it may mess it up!!!

Check this out:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ6Hb89lVXw[/ame]

There are a bunch of videos on trigger jobs on S&Ws

Miculek has one where he installs his spring kit. Nice. He also shows how to adjust the strain screw so it is light, but not too light.

 

[Ashlander]

Whoa!? Canted? How do I check for that? I suspect it's just that I need to work on the fundamentals of DA shooting. I've been shooting 1911's more recently and those can make anyone look like a decent shooter. DA is another ball game.....of course, even in SA it was still hitting low & left. Or should I say, "I was hitting low and left"?

A canted barrel is not clocked to precisely 12:00. Just look down your sights -- if the front post is straight up in relation to the frame you're fine.

BTW, when buying used revolvers some sellers can't resist loosening the strain screw a bit -- trying to sell the gun based on that wonderful trigger. If it feels too good -- check the screw.

 

[Nightowl]

If you are getting light strikes on a brand new gun, there are a couple of things that can be done to increase reliability if you are knowledgeable about the insides of a Smith. If not, you would be better served to call Customer Service and have them send a shipping label for you to send it back. They will fix it and send it back free of charge and for a lot less hassle than worrying about it and running around to different gun smiths.

There are tales of light strikes on new guns here quite often and I think they have little margin of error somewhere in the build. Some of the real knowledgeable guys here have even noted that the mainspring strength has been increased too. I had a new 586 in my hands a year ago that had a horrible pull of about 14 pounds. We really never had that from the factory when the firing pin was located on the hammer, but that was years ago in a land far, far away.

 

[RevUp_Action]

Really? Come on you guys... an 8 lb. DA trigger will set off any primer out there if everything else is mechanically as it should be. All my S&W revos (more than 2 dozen) are totally reliable at 6 - 6.5 lb. with Federal primers. This does not count the rimfires, they require a heavier hammer fall. A 7 lb. trigger should be 100% with Federal and Winchester.

The OP may have some endshake or a short firing pin or something else. No way to tell without seeing that particular gun.

 

[DT75]

There's two springs that will have an effect on the weight of the DA trigger pull, the hammer spring and trigger rebound spring.

The stock trigger rebound spring is quite stiff, and is easy to replace with a lighter one.

 

[Nix45]

...

The OP may have some endshake or a short firing pin or something else. No way to tell without seeing that particular gun.

Thanks. I'm not familiar with the term 'endshake'. Can you explain what that is and how I would assess for such a condition?

Thanks again.

 

[SeamasterSig]

Any suggestions on how to get my 12# trigger back to 10# and still maintain 100% reliability? (Assuming I now have 100% reliability.)

If the trigger is reasonably smooth, you are best advised to just get used to the fact that it is heavy. If it's not quite smooth enough, keep shooting. It'll improve over time. If it's still not smooth enough to satisfy you after a while, there are things you can do to improve it without necessarily lightening the spring or reducing reliability. But trying to chase the lightest, yet still reliable trigger is an exercise in futility.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

Any suggestions on how to get my 12# trigger back to 10# and still maintain 100% reliability? (Assuming I now have 100% reliability.)

I recommend wilson combat springs. Midway usa has them.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

Whoa!? Canted? How do I check for that? I suspect it's just that I need to work on the fundamentals of DA shooting. I've been shooting 1911's more recently and those can make anyone look like a decent shooter. DA is another ball game.....of course, even in SA it was still hitting low & left. Or should I say, "I was hitting low and left"?

I neglected to take pictures of a 629 i had with a clocked "canted" barrel. Some degrees offset is acceptable but an extreme is not. I'm hesitant to show you another members pictures without permission - but if you google "canted revolver barrel " you will quickly know what i mean.......

 

[bpeddicord]

I had the same problem with my new 686+. About one out of every 7 rounds would show a very light strike on the primer. This happened with reloads and factory ammo. The factory firing pin looked like it was just barely reaching the primers. I ordered and installed a .015 longer firing pin from Brownell's. That took care of the problem. I haven't had a problem since. If you are familiar with the insides of the S&W revolver, changing the firing pin is a 10 minute job.

 

[Nix45]

... I ordered and installed a .015 longer firing pin from Brownell's. ...

Order placed with Brownell's. Thanks.

 

[hkcavalier]

I have a 686+ that had the same problem (light strikes). Previous owner had done the Miculek DIY trigger job. I don't have a gauge but it's 10lb or less, I'd guess 8-9lbs. Very light but also very smooth.

I ended up having a gunsmith install a longer firing pin and it's 100% now.

 

[steelslaver]

Endshake:

The fore and aft movement of the cylinder while closed. A certain amount is necessary for the cylinder to turn freely. It is controlled by the fit of the cylinder the crane tube. With the cylinder closed firmly press cylinder to recoil shield and use feeler gauge to measure between front of cylinder and barrel. Then press cylinder forward towards barrel and remeasure gap. The difference is your end shake. .003 should be the maximum .001 is on the tight side. Excess can cause the hand to engage the ratchet incorrectly causing timing issues and can cause light primer strikes as part of the energy of the hammer/firing pin energy can be absorbed by the cylinder moving forward.

Can be corrected by thin shim washers during cylinder to crane assy. or by stretching the tube with a special tool. I like the shims because they give an additional hardened bearing surface. If the endshake is to tight the cylinder will bind on some or all of chambers.

 

[Invictus357]

The simplest thing to do is send it back to S&W and get them to have a look at it.

 

[Nix45]

Seriously?
A 12 lb DA pull isn't bad by ANY standard. What exactly would S&W's competition put on the table for you?

Fair questions. I think my disappointment stems from the fact that I had used the revolver--with misfires, of course--when it had a 10.5# trigger pull. Doesn't take long to get used to that. And by comparison, 12# feels much heavier. That's a 10% increase in pull weight.

In re the competition, I have complained to Ruger about Ruger's **** DA triggers. However, my GP-100 has been 100% reliable for 25 years. And with the Ruger, I was able to do a trigger job and swap out a couple of springs myself. Trigger pull in the GP is now very smooth and about 10#. And it's been 100% reliable.

My S&W M-19-3 came second hand and I don't know what, if anything was done to it, but it is quite smooth and I'd estimate a 10-11# trigger, but I haven't measured it. It, too, has been 100% reliable.

So while I don't expect a custom-tuned revolver off the shelf of my LGS, I do expect a pistol that one can rely on and has a decent trigger. Seriously.

 

[Toblerra]

Short firing pin.

 

[steelslaver]

Longer firing pin, check internals and smooth out rebound slide surfaces, hammer and trigger stud bosses. Sides of hammer and trigger drag marks? These can all cause a slight increase in trigger pull and in the case of hammer dragging rob momentum from the hammer causing a need for increase spring tension for reliability.

Yes in a perfect world all these should be addressed before it leaves the factory, but we are talking about a massed produced piece here. It is also why you have gunsmiths who do action jobs. You can have a reliable 10# double action pull. But, your not going to get it very often with an out of the box gun.

S&W installs a heavier than really needed trigger rebound spring and hammer spring for a reason. To get reliability in the face of small manufacturing imperfections.

Some of these small imperfections will smooth out with use. A gun that has been cycled thousands of times will be smoother than a new one. The parts wear in, just like a piston in a new cylinder in a new motor.

Once everything is as smooth as possible things like lighter rebound and hammer springs will work more reliably.

It is very similar to car motors. They work reliable when they come from the factory, but if you want the most from them you won't get it just tossing on some aftermarket parts. You need to blueprint the engine. Check and refine every part.

It is interesting that Ed McGivern liked stock springs. He wanted reliability. He didn't miss very often. Smooth and reliable beats light.

 

[DocGlock]

Order placed with Brownell's. Thanks.

If I'm not mistaken, do not dry fire with the extended firing pin installed without using snap caps. They should state in their instructions if this is still so.

 

[Nix45]

If I'm not mistaken, do not dry fire with the extended firing pin installed without using snap caps. They should state in their instructions if this is still so.

Thanks for the warning. I use snap caps in all my wheel guns...just to be safe.

 

[Toblerra]

Thanks for the warning. I use snap caps in all my wheel guns...just to be safe.

What he said ^

 

[rwsmith]

If that's the case......

Really? Come on you guys... an 8 lb. DA trigger will set off any primer out there if everything else is mechanically as it should be. All my S&W revos (more than 2 dozen) are totally reliable at 6 - 6.5 lb. with Federal primers. This does not count the rimfires, they require a heavier hammer fall. A 7 lb. trigger should be 100% with Federal and Winchester.

The OP may have some endshake or a short firing pin or something else. No way to tell without seeing that particular gun.

If that's the case it'd be best to send it back. There is NO reason a 586/686 should have an unsatisfactory trigger.

 

[Nix45]

UPDATE:

I got the 686+ out to the range today. The new strain screw seems to have done the trick. I shot 50 rounds of Winchester White box and 70 rounds of handloads using different brass and with different primers.

Zero failures. 100% fire rate.

I can see clearly that the firing pin is hitting the primers harder and causing a deeper indentation now with the new strain screw. I think she's fixed.

I can also see clearly the need to practice more as the bullets seem to take on an independent sense of direction past 15 yards or so. Still shooting left a bit. I adjusted the sights a tad, but I think I'm just not shooting DA all that well. The trigger pull at 12# doesn't seem too bad now, after shooting it today. I guess I'd like to see it tuned a bit, but will wait until I've shot it some more.

 

[jeeps]

My 686plus 3" runs on all ammo tested,even is hard primer plus,sb,magtech. Great wheelgun and my favorite,retired the OD m66 2-1/2".