86 year old- take keys and guns? Need advice

Stonecove i have another thought do whatever you want with it but here is what i think about the whole driving issue as a family you should all get together with your inlaws and have a family meeting and discuss the matter.

In regards to the entire gun thing i suggest you and your father in law since your both gun guys should sit down and discuss it privately man to man.
 
I really kind of hate these discussions and the entitlement feelings of offspring. I feel absolutely certain that my kids would love to come here and "take" my jeeps. They can dream up all sorts of reasons. And talk about guns! They'd really like to remove them from my custody. It'd be high times at the gun shows for them. What would you pay for my consecutive RMs? Bet they'd have a lot of uses for the money!

But the reality is if I knew they were coming we'd have a real western shootout. And they know good and well I've got more ammo. They'd probably want to sell that, too.

When we start having car crashes, depending on the cause, maybe the cars should go. Last crash we had in one of the Jeeps, it was momma trying to harvest a deer in western Kansas. I'm even guessing when they start finding bullet holes in the walls, maybe the guns and ammo would need to be sold. Of course oldest son found the bullet holes maybe 10 years ago. It was on the deck and the steps leading toward the pool. No one else even noticed the "woodpecker" holes in the treated lumber... Clear backstop beyond. Simple game, raccoon wanted my garbage, I had shotshells for the 1917. He came visiting, motion light went on, I'd be up and outside shooting.

So back to the thread. If I found anyone wanted to remove my guns (bring along a truck) I'd demand they stop. And then the next day I'd be at the lawyers office, changing my will to remove the folks that were making the demands. Sounds fair. I just want to remove the financial incentives for them doing it. If they want to make me miserable, I can at least make sure none of them inherit a dime. They're free to put their demands in any way they please. If it really doesn't have ulterior motives, they shouldn't care about a few rusty old guns being sold instead of just being "removed". Disowning them seems fitting.
 
In a few years my kids will face this problem. When the time comes that I'm a danger to others on the road, I hope they step forward and take the keys. That's just common sense. As for guns, leave them alone. If dementia is a problem, take the ammo - I probably wouldn't notice it, as I don't keep loaded guns around anyway. I do love to handle them and remember all the great times had with them. They are like a part of my being - without them around, it would be like losing the will to live. Sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. There will be a time where they don't exist in my mind - then they can do what they wish.
 
I don't see the harm in letting him keep his gun as long as he is driving a car. When he has the keys taken, thats the time to lock up the guns.

Summary - both his kids and his son-in-law feel that they have the absolute right to take away his guns whenever they decide its "the time". He is *so* lucky to have everyone in agreement.
 
Dealing with aging parents is difficult. Human dignity is extremely important. Quality of life is equally important. At one time I taught a course on dealing with aging parents. There aren't any pat answers, but there are huge variables. Mental competence is a key factor. As my own father aged, he made some decisions I didn't agree with which isn't surprising. I made a number of decisions he also didn't agree with. Our mutual respect allowed us to let the other person make their own decisions. Human dignity demanded that differences be discussed, but no dictatorial measures were taken. He died at 93 with his dignity to the end.

Just a thought: How you treat your parents will model how your children will probably treat you. After all, you taught them how.
 
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Summary - both his kids and his son-in-law feel that they have the absolute right to take away his guns whenever they decide its "the time". He is *so* lucky to have everyone in agreement.

Just to clarify there Cowart and I do resent your condesention. You have clearly cherry picked my words. Look at the paragraph where that statement is from it says:
"I told my wife that he is more in danger from falling down the stairs than accidentally shooting someone or himself. I said that if you take his guns you risk taking his dignity. Additionally, I feel his driving is probably more an issue, though he has had no tickets or accidents that I know of (25 years).
Anyway, this whole thing started because he supposedly had a gun under his pillow (which I would have stepped in and told him not to do). However, I don't see the harm in letting him keep his gun as long as he is driving a car. When he has the keys taken, thats the time to lock up the guns."

If he has dimentia or some mental condition where he can't drive anymore, then having a loaded gun probably makes no sense either. Neither does living in their condo without assistance, allowing him access to the basement (he has difficulty walking) etc., etc.
I already stated I think the best approach is to discuss the car issue as that is more of an issue in my opinion. As for the guns, they are not collector guns, so no one in the family wants them anyway. If he wants to get rid of them, I would ask to buy his pistol. If he wants to sell them no one has an issue.
I think mg57's idea of waiting until he returns to Michigan and he & I have a discussion on the guns. Personally, I don't have a problem, but his son who owns the condo my FIL is living in has a problem.
Stonecove
 
Having those anti-gun relatives make decisions for him is like the old line about two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Their bias will override everything. And I wouldn't equate driving with owning a gun. There can be certain issues about driving that don't apply to the ability to still handle a gun. And when you say someone said go and get the gun, that really pi.....made me real mad. Your original description of them says: snob, judgemental, elitist, and someone who just knows what's best for other people and must butt in. We're on the edge of topics where we shouldn't go here. Or I am anyway. But we can only go on what you said and that's my two cents.
 
I didn't cross that bridge until I found a bullet hole in my Dad's bedroom dresser. I had to disarm him, and it wasn't a pleasant task. But, it was really no contest. I'd rather have a Father who was angry with me, than a dead Dad with no opinion.
 
My uncle had a good mind and was able to shoot 10 yrs. after he had to quit driving. He couldn't see enough to drive but he could see enough across the room to tell friend from foe. I think the old man should disinherit all the kin people.
 
You said that "He went to visit them"? Whether he drove, took the train or flew in an airplane, it sounds like he is still able to function normally. Tell them to mind their own business, sounds like all they want is to advance their own agenda on him, which would probably go over about as well as a fart in church...
 
You said that "He went to visit them"? Whether he drove, took the train or flew in an airplane, it sounds like he is still able to function normally. Tell them to mind their own business, sounds like all they want is to advance their own agenda on him, which would probably go over about as well as a fart in church...

Yea Writer, as I said they think nothing of driving an hour to shop or visit friends. We drove them to Detroit but they flew to Palm Springs with one connecting flight so they are basically fearless. The issue seems to settle on the fact that the 2 kids on the west coast haven't seen them in 3 years and they have slowed down. The Lib daughter has her nose out of joint about the gun and got her brother all worked up about it. The good news is they won't be home for another 3 weeks so tempers should be somewhat cooler by then. My recommendation today is for the west coasters to discuss driving with each of them face to face, as my wife and I have felt the time is near for them to hang up the driving shoes. I'll have a face to face with my FIL when he returns and check him out on the gun issue and take him shooting.
Thanks for all your input.
Stonecove
 
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If he seems competent and able then discuss the fact that two of his kids want to take the gun/guns away. Ask about a restraining order if he is insistent they not do so.
 
Tell the kids you took them away, if they haven't bothered to visit him in that long he's probably good to go for at least another 5 years.
 
I don't see the problem except for the Lib's having something to scream about. I'm only 6 years younger than your father & drive & keep a gun in my bedroom.My kids [3] & grand kids [8] all were raised with guns & hunting.Also am a Californian by birth & so are my kids. No problem with my family either. My driving record is clean & I'm still healthy.Tell your Dad to do what he wants for as long as he wants.
 
Good for your FIL, he sounds like a great guy. His guns are just that his. Unless there is a demonstration of mental instability that would lead to many concerns, well beyond his guns leave it alone.

Taking his guns because of the phobia or paranoia of others is just unfair.

I would guess, given your description of how spry he is, if someone attempts to take his guns, they may see how well he can defend his right to have them!!!

From a distant observer, it sounds like it is time to take his back and tell the others to butt out, rather than take his guns!!
 
A 90 something year old man who lives near me was the victim of a home invasion two weeks ago. A man burst into his home in the middle of the night with a gun. Fortunately for my older neighbor no one had taken his gun from him. He sent the bad guy and his unseen accomplice packing. If he had been unarmed he could have died. My neighbor is still mentally capable of keeping a gun, but a few years ago I had to take my fathers guns from him. He had alzheimers and finally got to the point I was afraid he would kill someone or himself. Although he was in the early stages he was still able to reason. I sat down with him one day and explained my fears to him. My father knew his mind was going and was open to my sugestion. I proposed buying a safe to keep his guns in. I told him they would still be in his home, but would be in the safe and I would not give him the combination. I told him I would always open the safe for him when he wanted to see his guns or shoot them. He agreed completely and that was exactly what we did. As far as dealing with the original postors questions. I believe the family members who don't want the gun in the house should attempt to discuss the issue with the older gentleman instead of conspiring behind his back. If he is still in his right mind he knows full well they are talking about him behind his back. The best way for the matter to be settled is to communicate. You might be surprised by the outcome.
 
If he's keeping a .22 between the mattress and springs for self defense, you need to confiscate it. Then give him a real defense gun like a .40 or .45; heck, even a 9mm or .380 would be better.

He didn't take the gun to California, right? Anybody there has no vote on this until he does something that is clearly dangerous or threatening to himself or any remaining family back home. If he did take it to California, the very fact of transport is a little concerning if he didn't do it right, and in California he really ought to play by his hosts' house rules.

Guns and keys? You'll know when the time is right. Sounds like not yet.
 
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DC, no he didn't take it to California, it's still in Michigan under the matress. He's comfortable with the .22, it's been his security for decades.
Stonecove
 
Elder care issues are difficult. Judging from your post, the decision lies with your FIL. The concerns of the children are not substantiated. The physical issues described are not relevant to that decision. Any estimate of "bad judgment" is at best only a layman's judgment absent any actual evidence.

Keeping a loaded pistol by the bed is no big deal. It is routine for countless millions of people, both those who use guns routinely and those who seldom if ever fire a shot. Some even (perish the thought) keep a revolver or pistol under the pillow. I'm not aware of any reports of such revolvers or pistols cocking and firing themselves while the owner slept. On the whole, it is a illegitimate concern.

As in any other discussion of elder care, the concerns and interest of the individual are not to be considered in isolation. In this case, your MIL is rightly involved and must be considered. This is for the simple reason that they are husband and wife. Regardless of what anyone else thinks in the matter and absent any extreme reason to the contrary, the decision is theirs alone to make. If your MIL does not like guns, that is her choice. It will enter into their decision.

If mobility up and down stairs, etc. is becoming a problem, this needs to be addressed promptly. Loss of mobility due to injury, especially broken hips, is very much a factor in health decline among seniors. It can require a expenditure of money, etc. But the cost are far less in money and life experience than the cost of hospitalization, therapy and possible subsequent institutionalization.

Again, judging from your post, your FIL is about at the point where his ability to safely drive a car in normal everyday traffic needs to be seriously evaluated. On that basis alone the decision should be made exclusive of emotion or philosophy. His independence is one thing. But the risk he can pose to himself and others is entirely a larger consideration. As much as everyone talks about the accident rate among teenagers, the rate, etc., among elders is just as significant.

Elder care issues are difficult. Much of that difficulty is due to the emotions involved. Making such decisions for someone with whom you are not related by birth, marriage, etc. is one thing. Making such decisions for a family member, etc., is very much another thing entirely. Some will urge nothing except the minimum be done out of concern for personal freedom, etc. This is at best misguided. Some will urge nothing be done out of personal concern that they might have to face the same problem with a consequent loss of their own personal freedom/prerogative. This is not without merit. Again judging from your post, your FIL and MIL are capable of dealing with this matter to their satisfaction. If in the future your father begins to fail mentally, the decision will fall to your MIL. That is how it should be. They are married. Everyone else is at best spectators.

Speaking personally, my father drove his vehicles without problems until he was 83 years old. At that point he was living alone my mother having predeceased him. My brother and I decided that it was best that he no longer be driving. The keys remained on the dining room table. My brother is a very capable mechanic. He disabled the car and truck. It worked in our situation. My father's COLT Det. Special remained in his bedside table until the day of his death. Again, it worked in our situation. HTH. Sincerely. brucev.
 

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