9mm +P+ Ammo

[bearmn56]

I posted an question on the S&W semi-auto board about 9mm +P+ ammo and would the 3rd Gen pistols handle it. The answer was "yes, kinda" with lots of cautionary statements. I went on Youtube and watched many videos of the various Self Defense loads. The load that I am most interested in is the 147gr SD loads. I was able to purchase 500 147gr Federal HST bullets for about 11c each delivered. I also purchased 500 FC nickel casings for 8c each delivered. Have lots of load data, including the Hogdgon's load data center. I have had very good luck with H's Longshot in the 40 S&W. So, I have tried this powder in the 9mm using H's loads for Longshot. I used the published load of 4.7gr and a col of 1.160" using Federal 100 primers. In my 3914 Ladysmith, I am getting about 970fps with the 147gr bullets. Right on the money with the Youtube velocities for Federal 9mm 147gr HST factory ammo. Extreme spreads around 40fps. I also tried this load in an all steel framed CZ 75 compact with a fractionally longer barrel velocities around 1000fps with ES in the 40fps range. In my experience, F100 primers are on the soft side and they were showing some flattening. Out of curiosity, I tried CCI small magnum pistol primers. Velocities with the 147/ 4.7gr Longshot load moved up slightly to around 1000fps in the Ladysmith, with only 10fps ES. Hmmm...very good. In the CZ 75 Compact this combo produced 1060fps with an ES of 2fps in one of the 5 shot strings over the chrony! Primers are showing normal pressure when compared to factory ammo fired primers. In summary...one does not need to go to +P or +P+ pressures to get great results in producing one's own Self Defense ammo. I can load these rounds for about 25c instead of the 70c+ of factory ammo. Lots of cheap practice/shooting/carrying. Bill, Montana Territory

 

[Nevada Ed]

It is just that a +P+ load is not set in stone on it's spec's....
and there are some companies that have a "Lite" safe load and
others that have a "Heavy" full pressure load that state +P+, that
might not be safe to use in older weapons that were made to only
handle NATO ammo, as a maximum loading.

One reason some pistol makers make a do at your own risk.....
even though they are modern weapons.
They have no control over what the ammo makes shove into their cases!!

Even though it might be safe to shoot, a dirty chamber or a day
out in the hot sun that might spike ammo pressures, might be a
weapons down fall.

I shoot the federal 115gr +P+ in my weapons but I have sent them
over a chrony, measured and inspected the cases and found it
safe for use in "MY" weapons.

However I only use standard or just +P for my SD use.

 

[JayFramer]

The Federal 9BPLE has an amazing record for knockdown on the streets.

 

[bearmn56]

Follow up. After significant research and testing, I have a 9mm 147gr HST load using the 500 HST bullets and 500 FC nickel casings. After much searching here locally, I finally picked up 1000 CCI 500 primers. I have used these primers for many years. They are midway on a primer strength chart that I obtained years ago. The mildest pistol primer being the Remington 1 1/2. The hottest were the old Winchester Small Magnum Pistol primers. I concentrated on Hodgdon's Longshot and Alliant Blue Dot. My goal was to achieve around 1000fps in my 3.5" Ladysmith. This I was able to do easily with Blue Dot. I am a Longshot fan, big time, in the 40 s&w. However, I was not able to achieve the results that I wanted using this powder. The load that gave me everything that I wanted was 6.0gr Blue Dot, CCI 500 primer, FC nickel case and the 147gr HST bullet. (The top load in the LEE loading book was 6.2gr BD behind a 147gr 9mm XTP). Average velocity was 995fps measured 10-12 ft in front of the muzzle over my Chrony. Observed pressures on the primer show being quite mild....normal flattening with no metal protrusion around the firing pin strike. In the "old days", before ballistic software, when the Powley Computer slide rule was the tool of choice, there was a rule of thumb. For every 10% increase in pressure, there was only a corresponding 5% increase in velocity. The max average pressure for standard 9mm loads is 35,000psi. Max pressures for +P is 38,500psi (10% more). Standard 147gr loads give about 950-970fps in a 3.5" barrel (around 1000 for a 4"). So, 10% more pressure to +P levels would give only about another 50 fps in a 4" barrel and somewhat less in a 3.5" Ladysmith barrel. The above listed load, using some deductive reasoning, should not be more than +P pressures and perhaps somewhat less. In any case, I am quite satisfied with the 6.0gr BD load and am going to load up a couple hundred for practice. Bill Montana Territory

 

[Nevada Ed]

I am glad that you got that much powder in your cases with that 147gr bullet.

My first test were with a 147gr TMJ and I had to settle for less powder
and Blue Dot only got 945fps +/-.
This RN measured .643" in length.

However it was not far off the Federal factory 147 HST that did 975fps out of my 3.5" 9mm pistol.

Best powders for me for max fps were Unique and BE-86 powders.

The JHP design has to be a lot shorter, allowing for more powder
but I have yet to load this style, as yet.

Tight groups.

 

[bearmn56]

In my previous post, I did not provide a COL for this load. My COL is 1.140". This length provides good magazine fit and flawless feeding. BTW...in my testing, I went all the way to 6.2 grains of Blue Dot (the MAX load in my LEE manual). This extra powder only gave me 45fps more and I started to see some slight metal protrusion around the firing pin strike in the primer. Hence, the 6.0 gr load. Also, these loads are compressed, but do not present a problem with bullet seating. Bill Montana Territory

 

[boatbum101]

Ironically when USMC / USAMTU were accurizing the M9 for service pistol matches they found the Rem 5 1/2 small mag primer reduced SD/ES & improved accuracy . At the time this was a revelation . Another powder you might want to look at is VV N-105 . It's the king for hot 38 Super & 9 X 23 loads . Blue Dot has always given great velocity at lower pressures than many others . IIRC it also has some weird temp inversion properties in cold weather & the VV powders are also temp sensitive . Pray tell where were you able to buy HST bullets ? Are they new or pulls ?

 

[bearmn56]

The 147gr HST 9mm bullets that I purchased were on Gunbroker from Spectre supply....about $55.00/500 delivered. The bullets that I received did not appear to be pulled or seconds. All looked pretty much as new. They also have other weights like 124gr as well. Bill Montana Territory

 

[HorizontalMike]

N105 Loading Data Uses LONG OAL

Ironically when USMC / USAMTU were accurizing the M9 for service pistol matches they found the Rem 5 1/2 small mag primer reduced SD/ES & improved accuracy . At the time this was a revelation . Another powder you might want to look at is VV N-105 . It's the king for hot 38 Super & 9 X 23 loads . Blue Dot has always given great velocity at lower pressures than many others . IIRC it also has some weird temp inversion properties in cold weather & the VV powders are also temp sensitive . Pray tell where were you able to buy HST bullets ? Are they new or pulls ?

I tried using my large stock of N105 in my S&W 9mm M2.0 and IT WOULD NOT CYCLE NOR COMPLETELY LOAD/LOCK. The OAL of 1.142" is JUST TOO LONG. That said, it will depend on YOUR firearm of choice.

My 9mm M2.0 4.25" will only function with OAL 1.100", thus I personally had to revert back to HS6. Not a big issue, but since I am sitting on XX.lb N105.

Anyway, my 686 Magnums love it!

 

[jt1]

Keep a close eye on Blue Dot in cold weather, say below 40-35 deg.

Several years ago I ran across 8 # cheap. I shot it all thru several 9mm pistols. When it was cold it would do weird stuff, like being fine at one load, then a 0.1 increase flattening primers badly.

I didn't blow any primers or cases, but I learned that it was unpredictable at colder temps.

John

 

[Warren Sear]

^^^ Pressures can spike suddenly with Blue Dot. No more Blue Dot for me. I use 2400 for magnum loads and have never had a bit of trouble.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I use Blue Dot in shotguns, revolvers and pistols.
It can get maximum fps in some loads but it can also fall behind
with some bullet weights and case volume issues.
True, it is not a good "Cold weather powder" as I found out way back
when Steel pellets got the nod for duck hunting, many years ago.

It will work in a few 357 magnum and the 9mm with a 124gr JHP bullet but I have other powders that do better with the other bullets from 115 to 147grs, than BD powder.

I will add the Speer 147 TMJ and Berry 147 RN were set at 1.13 to 1.165" OAL in my
test and the factory Federal 147 HST was set at 1.13" +/- OAL