9mm revolvers - why.

Why ... Two Words
Ammo Availibility

I went to 5 different gun shops and sporting goods stores , localy owned and national chains and went to one indoor shooting range that sold loaded ammunition and once fired brass .
I found exactly ... 0 ... 38 special , either new or once fired brass or loaded ammo .
I did find 9mm Luger at every place and once fired brass at the indoor range ...
A 9mm Luger revolver is starting to make a lot of sense .
The Ruger Blackhawk Convertible with 38/357 and 9mm Luger cylinders is starting to look like one of the best idea's since sliced bread !
Gary
 
Why ... Two Words
Ammo Availibility

I went to 5 different gun shops and sporting goods stores , localy owned and national chains and went to one indoor shooting range that sold loaded ammunition and once fired brass .
I found exactly ... 0 ... 38 special , either new or once fired brass or loaded ammo .
I did find 9mm Luger at every place and once fired brass at the indoor range ...
A 9mm Luger revolver is starting to make a lot of sense .
The Ruger Blackhawk Convertible with 38/357 and 9mm Luger cylinders is starting to look like one of the best idea's since sliced bread !
Gary

One of the revolvers that my dad left me was a 1st year Ruger .357 Flattop. At some time in the past, I had bought a mid-frame 9m cylinder. I checked the cylinder in the Flattop and sure enough, it fit just fine.

Need to go out and shoot it some more.
 
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Many other factors entered into it, but I drifted away from competitions like this for these very reasons. Don't get me wrong - I early on had a comp put on a 1911, but had it configured so it was barely over the size of a standard 5" government model (by about a 1/4" as I recall), trying to "innovate, but stay within the spirit of the game as it was originally intended". A gun that could easily be carried for 'every day use', theoretically.

Then, the hi-cap specialty guns with scopes, lasers, multi-chamber comps, range finders, barricade supports, radar, curb feelers and the like (:)OK, so maybe I exaggerated just a little, but . . . ) took over and it became an equipment race that (I believe) unfairly defined stage design to the exclusion of anything "practical".

I could appreciate turning loose the flow of ideas, innovation and technology to 'push the limits of what can be achieved', but like 'stock car racing' it quickly took the game away from the casual enthusiast and priced him right of the game in any meaningful or enjoyable way. Yeah, I've heard all the defenses of that with "well they can compete in their own class!" and such, but that's like telling someone they can enter their stock Chevy in a NASCAR event and "we'll make a division just for you complete with a participation trophy". Naw . . . folks just say 'the game moved on without me and I wasn't having any fun so I found something else to do'. And then the match organizers bemoan the lack of participation. Stage design for a revolver doesn't offer anything to someone with a race gun and a twenty round mag, and turn about a stage set up for that rig offers nothing but tedium and frustration for a revolver shooter. Same for the guy with a model 10 or a 19 having to shoot a stage designed for a specialty performance center revolver that holds more rounds.

Folks gunna do what they gunna do . . . I'll jus' do me . . .

When I started shooting practical pistol competition it was to improve my practical skills as an LEO. I kept shooting after I left law enforcement for greener pastures. However, over the years I shot practical pistol, I saw numerous law enforcement officers show up at our local club matches. They varied from reserve police officers to FBI agents.

About half of them shot one match, placed badly way down near the bottom, realized how poorly they shot, and never came back. I suspect a few, those with big egos, found it offended their sense of entitlement as steely eyed professionals. Most of the others probably just realized how much more they'd have to shoot to get good and just didn't have an interest or just didn't want to invest the time and money.

But, the other half of them would start showing up on a regular basis at monthly matches and some of those would start showing up at the club range to practice. *All of them* got significantly better over time and it made them much more competent, and confident that they'd be able to use their firearms on the job if required.

They also used their issued service weapons. If you fast forward to today, those LEOs with issued weapons would be at an even greater disadvantage, and even when shooting at a very high level with an issued weapon, they are still not going to be competitive.

The current USPSA production category sound great but the number of mods allowed mean that a true ly stock production gun is at a serious disadvantage and a gun that is competitive in that c,*** is for the most part no longer practical as a normal concealed carry self defense handgun.

Like most others, I did exactly what you've described. I realized the futility of continuing to shoot in a sport that had become:
- an arms race;
- a sport that was becoming increasingly irrelevant for preparing for real world practical shooting, and
a sport where way to many people were using money to offset lack of ability.
 
Why ... Two Words
Ammo Availibility

I went to 5 different gun shops and sporting goods stores , localy owned and national chains and went to one indoor shooting range that sold loaded ammunition and once fired brass .
I found exactly ... 0 ... 38 special , either new or once fired brass or loaded ammo .
I did find 9mm Luger at every place and once fired brass at the indoor range ...
A 9mm Luger revolver is starting to make a lot of sense .
The Ruger Blackhawk Convertible with 38/357 and 9mm Luger cylinders is starting to look like one of the best idea's since sliced bread !
Gary

.38 Special/.357 magnum factory ammo has been a scarcity for over 30 years in my area. I happen to know there are lots of of guns around here chambered for those cartridges, but they are not owned by recreational shooters.
Plenty of empty brass for the reloaders, though.
 
I have been using Safariland speedloaders off and on for 35 years or more. Never had one dump rounds when it wasn't supposed to.
I like to practice " shoot 2 and load 2 " drills. Can't do that with moon clips.
BTW, I happen to have a " range toy " or two myself.

A partial tactical reload does not require ejecting loaded rounds.
Open the cylinder. Press the ejector rod to the rear using thumb of left hand enough to lift all fired and unfired rounds part way out of the cylinder. The fired brass will be the closest ones to the center line of your body ( for a right-handed shooter ). Hook the right-hand fingernails of index finger and the one next to it under the empty brass rims. Flip both empties out simultaneously. Reload the two empty chambers with live rounds from belt loop or pocket with right hand.
Done properly, it's actually a fairly quick reload.
Full reloads done with my Safariland ( far superior to HKS-don't know why people use them at all ) I do with my left hand.
On my belts, I carry any speed loaders on the left front. A few cartridges in loops on the right front.
My method is unconventional, but is pretty fast if I practice a little once in a while. I stopped all centerfire practice a couple of years ago because of the ammo and component shortages and prices. I still have a pretty good supply of components I bought years ago before everything went crazy, but when I think about replacement costs, when, if ever primers and powder are available again it makes me not want to burn up what I have in stock. I know prices will never return to what they were 3+ years ago.
The days of 4 cent primers and 25 dollar per pound powder are gone forever. We still have some dark days and years ahead, and who can say components will be available at any price at some period in the future.
 
Super Senior Rob making a reload at the Maryland State USPSA match. Slow and steady with the 929. lol!
 

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I carried a 3" M625 .45 ACP as my duty sidearm for 2 years. I could carry 2 full moon clips in each speed loader pouch. During our department qualifications, I could reload as fast or faster than my fellow officers armed with semi-autos.

I NEVER bent a full moon clips.

We are obviously in full or near full agreement. I asked smooth shooter how he came to think what he thought - through stuff he did or through stuff he heard.

I suspect he doesn't know what he's stated other than based on what he has heard.

—-

There are four ways of "knowing" something more importantly both knowing and understanding it. They occur in this order.

1) Authority:

You "know" something because someone you regard as an authority told it to you through either the spoken or written word. How well that works really depends on how much of an authority that person really was on the subject, and how relevant that person's knowledge of the subject is to your actual use or need.

2) Observation and the scientific method:

You know something based on your own observations of it, and even better through actual objective experimentation backed up by actual real world experience under a wide range of conditions.

3) Logic:

An important extension of observation and the scientific method is the application of logic to compare various alternatives alternatives based on a logical assessment of objective, qualitative and quantitative data about whatever it is you are attempting to know and understand.

4) Philosophy;

This is unfortunately the least used and most mis understood piece of the pie. You might "know" something through all of the above methods, but what you think you know can be fatally flawed and or invalid if it doesn't fit into the larger picture.

——-

Knowing something through "Authority" is by far the most common but it's also by far the most limited and error prone way of knowing something.

The higher levels of knowing something requiring increasing levels of critical thinking and an increasing willingness to amend or modify what you think you know based on further information that won't always support your preferred point of view.

Observation of experience really should be the minimum acceptable level - within reason, as there is no need to burn your yourself on a hot stove after watching someone else do it, etc.

As an aside, it's important to understand there's also "direct learning", "indirect learning" and "vicarious learning". A retired marine professor once explained it like this:

Going to a stripper bar in Tijuana, climbing up on the stage with the stripper, then getting hit in the head and thrown out in the alley is "direct learning". It's the most effective and most long lasting form of learning , if you survive.

Being in the stripper bar and watching the guy above get clubbed in the head and thrown out in the alley is "indirect learning". It's not quite as effective or as long lasting, but you are more likely to survive and have the opportunity to learn without permanent negative consequences.

Sitting in class and being told what happens if you try to climb up on the stage in a stripper bar in TJ is "vicarious learning". It's the least effective and Lear long lasting, but it's the easiest to teach and can be done without minimal risk to the learner.


It's fine if someone tells you that "this is what works best", and it can be a good starting point. However, unless there's some serious risk to trying another, and better yet, several other methods, you just are not going to know much relying strictly on some "expert's" opinion.

What he knows may or may not be relevant to your situation and what he's pushing will almost certainly be biased by his needs and his experiences which may be vastly different than your needs. The real world is full of conflicting information, conflicting priorities and necessary compromises. Without understanding something through all four methods you won't make optimum choices to resolves those conflicts and compromises.

And of course many of those "experts" just are not very expert at all. You don't really know until you test and verify that information through the other three ways of knowing and understanding something.
 
A partial tactical reload does not require ejecting loaded rounds.
Open the cylinder. Press the ejector rod to the rear using thumb of left hand enough to lift all fired and unfired rounds part way out of the cylinder. The fired brass will be the closest ones to the center line of your body ( for a right-handed shooter ). Hook the right-hand fingernails of index finger and the one next to it under the empty brass rims. Flip both empties out simultaneously. Reload the two empty chambers with live rounds from belt loop or pocket with right hand.
Done properly, it's actually a fairly quick reload.
Full reloads done with my Safariland ( far superior to HKS-don't know why people use them at all ) I do with my left hand.
On my belts, I carry any speed loaders on the left front. A few cartridges in loops on the right front.
My method is unconventional, but is pretty fast if I practice a little once in a while. I stopped all centerfire practice a couple of years ago because of the ammo and component shortages and prices. I still have a pretty good supply of components I bought years ago before everything went crazy, but when I think about replacement costs, when, if ever primers and powder are available again it makes me not want to burn up what I have in stock. I know prices will never return to what they were 3+ years ago.
The days of 4 cent primers and 25 dollar per pound powder are gone forever. We still have some dark days and years ahead, and who can say components will be available at any price at some period in the future.

There are several potential issues with doing the partial tactical reload you describe.

1) It requires a great deal of fine motor skill, something you will have a lot less of under extreme stress, such as when receiving fire in a firefight;

2) pressing the ejector rod to partially eject the rounds is dependent on the cartridges not sticking in the chambers. That's fine with .38 Special but that often not the case with a full power .357 Mag self defense load. Almost as bad, you've now created a need for both a rapid full ejection of cases, and a soft partial ejection of cases and under extreme stress your brain has to accurately pick the right one, and then execute the soft partial ejection with seriously challenged fins motor skills.

3) If you are looking down at the cylinder to visually ID the fired cartridge your eyes are no longer on the fight and you've now become just a target.

4) add in some adrenaline, time pressure and a little shakiness and you run a real risk of one of those rounds getting bumped out of the ejector start and falling back into the chamber under the ejector star, which now leaves your revolver totally inoperable until you pick that cartridge or case back out of the chamber while holding the ejector rod in to keep the star above the cylinder. With a short barrel revolver and short ejector rod that task becomes even more difficult.



In contrast, with a moon clip:

1) the need for fine motor skill is kept to a minimum;

2) you can use the same method to firmly eject the rounds each and every time with every tactical and administrative reload so you'll develop muscle memory and never find yourself confused by what you need to do to eject the rounds;

3') you can conduct the entire reload by feel with no need to take your eyes off the threat;

4) you'll never render your revolver inoperable by getting a cartridge under the ejector star.

—-

Otherwise, I don't have issues with your method.

The FBI reload is extremely fast and works well with a full length ejector rod and low pressure rounds like the .38 Special that are easy to eject and don't put much heat in the forcing cone. However it also puts you in a near wrist lock and puts you in a hunched forward head down position that makes it harder to keep your eyes on the threat.

The Universal reload works better with short ejector rods and or longer high pressure rounds like the .357 Magnum, even if it is slightly slower. However it still has the same wrist lock, head down downsides.

The Stress Fire reload is a little slower, however it is better suited to rounds like the .357 Mag that put a lot of heat into the forcing cone and can result in the forcing cone burning the side of your middle finger with the FBI or Universal reloads when you press the cylinder out of the frame and rest the revolver on the side of that finger. It also leaves the unloaded revolver in the left hand but without the wrist lock and head down issues, so the slight loss in speed is offset by significant real world advantages that are not accurately covered in practical handgun matches.

The point here is that there are pros and cons to each revolver reload method that shooters have to fully understand.

——

Context is also important. Someone in this thread mentioned they like to practice the "shoot two, load two" method. That's fine I guess. But it's an outgrowth of the Newhall shooting and a response to how firing six rounds and then reloading with a dump pouch can go wrong.

When I started in law enforcement, we had a police chief who was basically anti gun. Six shot revolvers with department issued .38 Special and only 6 rounds in a dump pouch for a reload. No speed loaders, and in fact not even a 7th round in the dump pouch even though it was rare for an officer not to drop at least one while trying to reload under speed and time pressure.

The "shoot two, load two" response to the Newhall shootout was really "shoot the revolver dry, eject the cases, single load two more rounds and then get back in the fight, fire two more rounds, load two more rounds, rinse and repeat".

The idea was an officer or agent would spend less time head down single loading two rounds than he would a full six rounds and be less likely to be shot while distracted and oblivious during the reload. On the other hand the officer or agent would also be reloading three times as often in an extended shoot out, so it was clearly biased toward the idea that shoot outs would be short affairs where no more than a couple more rounds were likely to be needed.

The use of speed strips helped speed up the process and greatly reduced the potential, to drop rounds, but the cylinder still had to be properly indexed to ensure the revolver went bang when you pulled the trigger

But…the whole concept was also driven by police chiefs like mine that refused to embrace speed loader technology that had been around in one form or another since 1935 and or who just didn't want officers being able to reload quickly out of fears they'd shoot more.
 
When I went through the po-leese academy in 1979, it was revolvers ONLY, loops or drop boxes ONLY. The theory was that some departments mandated these restrictions, so everybody had to qualify the same way.

I shot NRA Expert with a 4" M19 that I had round butted. Sure wish I could still shoot that good now. :)
 
Have had two(2) 547's LOVED them both but was so afraid of firing them and runing collector value-I reluctantly sold them both. As far as 9mm over .38 or .357 in a snub recolver-it's pretty easy-9mm is cheaper and easier to get than either .38 or .357. Face it guys-the era of rimmed centerfire handgun cartridges is pretty much over as we knew it growing up.
I would like a J frame using the same mechanism as the 547 without a lock but that AIN'T gonna happen. I can tell you this-if I come across an old steel fraoed J frame in 9mm, I will buy it just for the availability/price of ammo.
I'm not gonna get rid if the .38's or the .357's but I'm not going to be buying any new guns chambered as such.
 
Moon clips are okay for a range toy, but are questionable for some match shooting and self defense. The only way to do a tactical partial reload is to dump the whole moon clip on the ground with unfired rounds still in it. Seems like a waste.
Moon clips are more easily bent than a Safariland speed loader.
Moon clips usually require some type of tool to reload.
Pu..lease..........why in the wide world of sports would an individual decide that it would be a good idea in the middle of a shooting to reload a partially loaded revolver?. The only tactical dump I would be thinking of doing in a shooting situation would be the one that would necessitate throwing away my drawers.
As far as the assertion that moon clips are more easily bent than a speed loader-well duhhhhhhhh. NEITHER one can be easily bent or broken but if you set your mind to it, a moon clip can be rendered inoperable by bending it whereas a speed loader will probably need a hammer and require a bit more effort.
As far as reloading-you are correct-it is easier to reload a speed loader than a moon clip-but since most people do not reload either while under fire-I suggest that this is a moot point.
 
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