9mm revolvers - why.

I was googling something the other day and a comment in a S&W forum thread popped up. The poster was stating he had no idea why anyone would want a 9mm revolver.

He was apparently offended that someone might choose a revolver when there were so many 9mm semi auto pistol options available.

Given that it was an off topic comment in a Jurassic thread, I figured I'd post my thoughts in a new thread rather than resurrect a dinosaur.

——

I own three revolvers in 9mm (as well as a S&W 625 in .45 ACP). They include an L frame sized Ruger Speed Six, a K framed sized Alpha-Proj AL-9 and a J frame sized Taurus 905.

IMG_0805.HEIC


I see a few advantages:

9mm ballistics compared to .38 +P and .357 Magnum

A 125 gr .38 +P load in a 3" revolver will produce about 1025-1050 fps. In comparison a 124 gr 9mm will produce about 1150 fps. That's still about 150-200 fps less than a 125 gr .357 Magnum, but the 9mm is a significant 100 fps more than the .38 +P but with a lot less recoil than a .357 Magnum.

In a J frame sized pistol, like the Taurus 905 below, it can make a big difference, being a lot more controllable than a .357 Mag in a S&W Model 60.

Reloads with moon clips versus speed loaders

From time to time I like to shoot the current FBI qualification course with a revolver.

Shooting my 3" 686 or 3" Model 13 and either .38 Special or .357 Mag ammo, I generally score 49/50. I drop one point on the 7 yard line where you have to start with 4 rounds in the gun, from the ready fire 4 rounds, conduct and emergency reload, and then fire 4 more rounds, all in 8 seconds as it's not quite enough time to get off that last round before the target turns.

However, shooting a 9mm revolver, using moon clips for the reload, it's enough faster that it lets me consistently make that 8th shot in that stage.

Moon clips are more compact to carry and more reliable than any speed loader. With round nose bullets they almost fly in the cylinder by themselves, and even with hollow points they are quicker to align than hollow points from a speed loader.

You also will never have a case get stuck under the ejector star with a moon clip.

Ammo availability and commonality

In the ammo shortages that have unfortunately become both periodic and long lasting, 9mm Luger is almost always available while .38 Special, .38 +P and .357 Mag can become hard to find.

If you prefer carrying a revolver, having the option to use 9mm Luger is a big plus when .38 and .357 are hard to find.

From time to time I'll carry a 9mm pistol as my primary and a J frame sized 905 as a back up and it lets me use the same load in both my primary and back up handguns.

Even if you carry a 9mm pistol exclusively, rather than a revolver, if your significant other carries a revolver, the ability to use common ammo is a big plus. As noted above, the recoil is also manageable, while offering better performance than .38 or .38+P.

Moon clips are okay for a range toy, but are questionable for some match shooting and self defense. The only way to do a tactical partial reload is to dump the whole moon clip on the ground with unfired rounds still in it. Seems like a waste.
Moon clips are more easily bent than a Safariland speed loader.
Moon clips usually require some type of tool to reload.
 
Last edited:
Moon clips are okay for a range toy, but are questionable for some match shooting and self defense. The only way to do a tactical partial reload is to dump the whole moon clip on the ground with unfired rounds still in it. Seems like a waste.
Moon clips are more easily bent than a Safariland speed loader.
Moon clips usually require some type of tool to reload.

Well…there's no free lunch but your preconceived bias is showing.

Denigrating them as "range toys" further weakens your argument. I don't know why people think going negative is a good idea, it's not.

——

Again to be fair, not all moon clips are the same and some of them are really poor quality. That said, I've yet to bend one of my TK Customs or Speed Beez moon clips, and I've stepped on a lot of the Speed Beez moon clips. However, for the sake of argument I'll agree they are more easily bent than a Comp or Comp II speed loader. But then I'll have to also point out they are a lot cheaper and I can stack 20 empty moon clips in the same space as a single empty speed loader.

——

Match wise, it probably depends on the match and match rules to some extent, but objectively speaking I can load a revolver with moon clips faster than I can a Comp or Comp II speed loader.

I have two Apache 1800 boxes. One has 36 (two layers of 18) loaded .45 ACP moon clips in it (216 rounds). The other has loading and unloading tools along with usually, a single layer of up to 18 loaded moon clips. That's still 108 rounds loaded and ready to go. I can load them up watching TV the evening prior to the match and not have to ever bother loading a moon clip during a match.

——

In any case, loading cartridges into moon clips with a loading tool is super simple. However, even without a tool all you really need to load one is a hard surface. Lay the cartridge on the surface, line up the slot in the moon clip and press down. It snaps right in. Rinse and repeat until it's full.

In terms of unloading, there are at least three unloading tool designs and all of them either already are or can be made pocket sized. You can literally carry one on a key ring. Lacking any of those, you can pop them out with a pocket knife.

——

I'm trying to wrap my head around your tactical partial reload comment. You correctly state that to do that you'd have to dump the whole moon clip, which is correct. However to do a partial tactical reload without moon clips You still have to eject all the rounds, and then what? Sort them out on the ground and put the unfired rounds back in the gun - under stress and time pressure, possibly while receiving fire? It makes no sense in a match and makes even less sense in self defense.

The bottom line is that barring a match rule preventing it I can carry more moon clips in the same space that I'd carry speed loaders. For example, I have a shoulder holster with a pair of speed loader carriers on the off side, they'll each carry a single speed loader in .45 ACP, or they will carry two moon clips with .45 ACP. With 30 rounds rather than 18, I can afford to drop a lot of rounds in partial tactical reloads.

——

Self defense wise, I still greatly prefer moon clips to a speed loaders. They won't accidentally dump rounds, they require less fine motor skills, and they go in the gun quicker, and I can carry more of them.

IMG_0809.HEIC


FullSizeRender(5).jpg


FullSizeRender(4).jpg
 
Moon clips are okay for a range toy, but are questionable for some match shooting and self defense. The only way to do a tactical partial reload is to dump the whole moon clip on the ground with unfired rounds still in it. Seems like a waste.
Moon clips are more easily bent than a Safariland speed loader.
Moon clips usually require some type of tool to reload.

Seven years with my 9mm 642-1… haven't managed to bend one (all S&W moonclips). Federal L/E and have the gun on me most of the time I'm up and not working (right now, for example). I use Del Fatti moonclip holders, which do an awesome job with carry and protection. I never worried about moonclips until I started trying different ways of carrying… which I posted a thread here and a few other forums.

bUDnXNv.jpg


For a tactical reload… it's a five shot gun. I understand what you are saying, but it's a similar argument as a half empty magazine. Eject it, stow, and put in the new ammo source. I'll have to start seeing how tossing in a moonclip with three empties pans out next time I go to the range. That being said, unless I'm in the middle of Walmart when stuff lights off… one of the nice things to accomplish is to get back to my truck with the suppressed AR pistol and Level III+/POLICE marked vest in it. Sort of a depends on the situation… but if I only have a five shot J frame… I'll do what I can.

I was never a Safariland guy… prefer HKS… but get what you mean. Problem when you have a rimless case, you either need a moonclip, a mechanical extraction system or a stick to eject empties. Moonclips are the more practical/cost effective method.

I went with these as my loader/unloader…

BMT Equipped, Inc.

Have the J frame 9mm and the N frame .45 ACP (for my 1917). I feel that loading/unloading is where you will mess up a moonclip, so a few extra dollars for the loader wasn't an issue for me.
 
The Israelis experimented with a 9MM revolver in either the late 1940s or 1951-52, I have read various accounts. Only about 50 made, they ended up as presentation pieces, the Israelis adopted the Beretta M1951.
A revolver chambered in 9MMP/38 Super makes some sense, IIRC the "official" bore diameter for 9MM is slightly smaller than .357, the 38 Super has more "oomph !"
 
You 547 guys should try a pair of rubber stocks. They will improve your groups.
 

Attachments

  • SW M-547.jpg
    SW M-547.jpg
    103.6 KB · Views: 28
Good thoughts here in this thread.

For you competition shooters, is the 9mm totally taking over or are people still using 8 shot .38s with moon clips? Is the shorter case that much of an advantage? Also I wonder is there a difference with how the moon clips interact with the 9mm case with its distinct "waist" differently than a .38 case with a rim?
 
Good thoughts here in this thread.

For you competition shooters, is the 9mm totally taking over or are people still using 8 shot .38s with moon clips? Is the shorter case that much of an advantage? Also I wonder is there a difference with how the moon clips interact with the 9mm case with its distinct "waist" differently than a .38 case with a rim?

I still like my S&W .45 ACP for Revolver division shooting, although I don't shoot nearly as much as I used to.

Under the USPSA rules there are major and minor power factor requirements in the Revolver Division, like the Open, Single Stack and Limited divisions.

Under the Major power factor rules, the minimum power factor is 165 *and* the maximum revolver capacity is six rounds. Under the Minor power factor rules the minimum power factor is 165 and the maximum capacity is 8 rounds.

Major power factor hits score 5, 4 and 2 points respectively for A, C and D hits. Minor power factor hits score 5, 3 and 1 points for A, C and D hits.

In terms of Major versus Minor and 6 shots versus 8, it comes down to how the stages at a match are set up whether an 8 shot Minor revolver has a competitive edge over a Major revolver.

Personally, I don't think there is a significant difference between ejecting .38 Special versus 9mm cartridges on a competition gun with a full length ejector rod. A power factor of 125 is a full power load for a .38 Special, but they are not sticky during ejection.

A bigger consideration is if a competitor shoots a 9mm semi auto pistol in one of the other divisions. Shooting a 9mm revolver makes the logistics easier with common ammunition for both.
 
Loading moon clips without a tool is easy. It just depends on what brass you are using. At the second International Revolver Championship (IRC) they had a side match to see who could unload and load a speed loader the fastest.

Guess who won. Jerry Miculek is just unbelievable and topped the crowd with his technique. Tools were allowed but de-mooning and reloading was easy if you were using Winchester brass.

I find 9 mm brass harder to load by hand but again with the right moons and brass it's not that difficult.

Too bad my USPSA days are over. Before I left I shot a 929 and could reload in well under 2 seconds. Faster than with Comp IIIs cut down for speed.
 
Moon clips are okay for a range toy, but are questionable for some match shooting and self defense. The only way to do a tactical partial reload is to dump the whole moon clip on the ground with unfired rounds still in it. Seems like a waste.
Moon clips are more easily bent than a Safariland speed loader.
Moon clips usually require some type of tool to reload.

I carried a 3" M625 .45 ACP as my duty sidearm for 2 years. I could carry 2 full moon clips in each speed loader pouch. During our department qualifications, I could reload as fast or faster than my fellow officers armed with semi-autos.

I NEVER bent a full moon clips.
 
I have a convertible Ruger Blackhawk, the 115 gr 9mm is about right for muskrat, skunk, porcupine, coyote,badger etc, that you run into on the farm. It seems a dozen 9mms in a pocket take up about the same room as 6 38s. Ammo available and cheap.

Works for me.

Available and cheap do not seem to apply at the moment.
Maybe someday . . .
 
Well…there's no free lunch but your preconceived bias is showing.

Denigrating them as "range toys" further weakens your argument. I don't know why people think going negative is a good idea, it's not.

——

Again to be fair, not all moon clips are the same and some of them are really poor quality. That said, I've yet to bend one of my TK Customs or Speed Beez moon clips, and I've stepped on a lot of the Speed Beez moon clips. However, for the sake of argument I'll agree they are more easily bent than a Comp or Comp II speed loader. But then I'll have to also point out they are a lot cheaper and I can stack 20 empty moon clips in the same space as a single empty speed loader.

——

Match wise, it probably depends on the match and match rules to some extent, but objectively speaking I can load a revolver with moon clips faster than I can a Comp or Comp II speed loader.

I have two Apache 1800 boxes. One has 36 (two layers of 18) loaded .45 ACP moon clips in it (216 rounds). The other has loading and unloading tools along with usually, a single layer of up to 18 loaded moon clips. That's still 108 rounds loaded and ready to go. I can load them up watching TV the evening prior to the match and not have to ever bother loading a moon clip during a match.

——

In any case, loading cartridges into moon clips with a loading tool is super simple. However, even without a tool all you really need to load one is a hard surface. Lay the cartridge on the surface, line up the slot in the moon clip and press down. It snaps right in. Rinse and repeat until it's full.

In terms of unloading, there are at least three unloading tool designs and all of them either already are or can be made pocket sized. You can literally carry one on a key ring. Lacking any of those, you can pop them out with a pocket knife.

——

I'm trying to wrap my head around your tactical partial reload comment. You correctly state that to do that you'd have to dump the whole moon clip, which is correct. However to do a partial tactical reload without moon clips You still have to eject all the rounds, and then what? Sort them out on the ground and put the unfired rounds back in the gun - under stress and time pressure, possibly while receiving fire? It makes no sense in a match and makes even less sense in self defense.

The bottom line is that barring a match rule preventing it I can carry more moon clips in the same space that I'd carry speed loaders. For example, I have a shoulder holster with a pair of speed loader carriers on the off side, they'll each carry a single speed loader in .45 ACP, or they will carry two moon clips with .45 ACP. With 30 rounds rather than 18, I can afford to drop a lot of rounds in partial tactical reloads.

——

Self defense wise, I still greatly prefer moon clips to a speed loaders. They won't accidentally dump rounds, they require less fine motor skills, and they go in the gun quicker, and I can carry more of them.

IMG_0809.HEIC


FullSizeRender(5).jpg


FullSizeRender(4).jpg
I have been using Safariland speedloaders off and on for 35 years or more. Never had one dump rounds when it wasn't supposed to.
I like to practice " shoot 2 and load 2 " drills. Can't do that with moon clips.
BTW, I happen to have a " range toy " or two myself.
 
I'd like to know how those who are offended by 9mm Revolvers feel about Revolvers chambered for the .40 S&W cartridge. (Not 10mm Auto either, exclusively for .40 S&W.)

To me, a 9mm Revolver is the same as a .45 ACP Revolver. Why choose one over a .357 Magnum or .45 Long Colt Revolver? Because you're already setup for 9mm or .45 ACP.
 
Last edited:
*facepalm*

9mm doesn't even do 1125 out of a 3" auto. It does closer to 1025. In a 2" or 3" revolver it will be in the same range or less.

The chamber pressure has to reach and hold a high enough level for long enough. 9mm reaches a higher pressure more quickly and is designed to sustain it for 4-5" of barrel as pressure drops very very quickly. So, no. Your 9mm isn't doing 5" barrel velocities out of a 3" revolver.
 
While I don't have any revolvers in 9x19 I do have two Model 610 S&W revolvers in 10mm as well as a S&W 25-14 and a Model 22-4 in 45 ACP. In my case the allure for these type revolvers are the full moon clips and the versatility.

The clips provide an extremely rapid reload and an excellent system for retaining my spent brass. From a versatility standpoint I have the ability to utilize ammo that for one reason or an other does not function reliably in my semiauto pistols. These platforms also allow for the use of .40 S&W and 45 GAP in addition to the standard 10mm and 45 ACP loadings.

A perfect example of this is some years back my local Gander Mountain closed. In the last few days before it closed about the only remaining ammo were boxes of 230gr., 45 GAP. I didn't own a dedicated pistol in this caliber however the ability to fire this round in my two 45 ACP revolvers allowed me to take advantage of the $7 per 50rd close out pricing on that ammo.
 
Last edited:
I started shooting practical pistol competition in the mid 1980s. Over the years I watched folks get badly off track pursuing the "speed" aspects of it at the expense of the "practical" aspects of it. They eventually ruined it with race guns. The addition of stock classes hasn't fixed the mess it's become.

Setting stages that eliminate traditional 6 shot revolvers from competing is just more of the same.


/\ /\ /\ /\ THIS /\ /\ /\ /\


Many other factors entered into it, but I drifted away from competitions like this for these very reasons. Don't get me wrong - I early on had a comp put on a 1911, but had it configured so it was barely over the size of a standard 5" government model (by about a 1/4" as I recall), trying to "innovate, but stay within the spirit of the game as it was originally intended". A gun that could easily be carried for 'every day use', theoretically.

Then, the hi-cap specialty guns with scopes, lasers, multi-chamber comps, range finders, barricade supports, radar, curb feelers and the like (:)OK, so maybe I exaggerated just a little, but . . . ) took over and it became an equipment race that (I believe) unfairly defined stage design to the exclusion of anything "practical".

I could appreciate turning loose the flow of ideas, innovation and technology to 'push the limits of what can be achieved', but like 'stock car racing' it quickly took the game away from the casual enthusiast and priced him right of the game in any meaningful or enjoyable way. Yeah, I've heard all the defenses of that with "well they can compete in their own class!" and such, but that's like telling someone they can enter their stock Chevy in a NASCAR event and "we'll make a division just for you complete with a participation trophy". Naw . . . folks just say 'the game moved on without me and I wasn't having any fun so I found something else to do'. And then the match organizers bemoan the lack of participation. Stage design for a revolver doesn't offer anything to someone with a race gun and a twenty round mag, and turn about a stage set up for that rig offers nothing but tedium and frustration for a revolver shooter. Same for the guy with a model 10 or a 19 having to shoot a stage designed for a specialty performance center revolver that holds more rounds.

Folks gunna do what they gunna do . . . I'll jus' do me . . .
 

Latest posts

Back
Top