9mm Vs. .45 ACP carbine

[federali]

For those seeking to add a carbine to their defensive firearms, I was tempted to buy the new Ruger carbine in 9mm or possibly wait until it is offered in .45 ACP. This prompted me to do some off-the-cuff research using a web site called "ballistics by the inch." BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results

Of particular interest, assuming an 18" carbine barrel, most ,45 ACP loads max out in about 14 inches of barrel and any barrel length beyond that acts as a drag on the bullet, slowly it down. The 9mm, on the other hand, continues to pick up velocity and often hits maximum velocity at around 17 to 19 inches of barrel length. In either caliber, the extra barrel length adds about 200 FPS to velocity. Unfortunately, the optimum barrel length for .45 ACP is short of the 18" minimum barrel length required by federal law.

I could touch off yet another 9mm vs. .45 ACP cyber war but I stop short of a specific recommendation. You may decide what's best for you should a pistol-caliber carbine be in your future.

 

[dusty3030]

16" for rifles.

 

[SAFireman]

I was under the impression that a carbine could be 16" long as a minimum, a shot gun had to be 18" (except for the new exception of the Shockwave & Tac-14).

I would go for the 45 just because it would match my 1911

 

[mrchuck]

Remember the Ruger Carbine with the 18 inch long barrel in 44 magnum caliber.
I bought one in 1965.
Killed a black bear with it.
Got almost arrested when I was skinning it out during the LA Riots.

 

[andy52]

The one I built is technically a pistol in 9mm. It has a 10.5" barrel with a dedicated lower and Sig Brace. I really didn't consider a .45 or .40 when I started the build simply because the 9mm is cheaper to shoot on a regular basis. When shooting +p loads I get about 1350- 1400 fps according to my chronograph.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I've been thinking about getting a pistol caliber carbine (PCC) in 9mm, mostly because that's the handgun caliber I'm interested in.

My biggest question is terminal performance. There are many 9mm defensive loads that are well-proven and perform well in gel when fired from pistols, but I don't know how that translates to carbine performance, with my biggest concern being how well the bullet stays together. Does it still penetrate adequately at the higher velocity? Does it fragment? Or is a 200fps bump in speed not enough for that to be a concern? My non-expert presumption is that a .45ACP JHP may be more likely to hold together and penetrate adequately than a 9mm JHP, but I don't have any facts/evidence to back that up.

I suppose if I ever actually get down to buying a PCC I'll look at that aspect a little more closely.

 

[paulh]

Don't know if my Henry is considered a carbine but I went with the 44mag since one of my S&W's is 44mag and I have mucho ammo

 

[federali]

I Stand Corrected

Yes, rifle barrels need to be 16" to be legal. Shotguns must be 18".

 

[Not Getting Any Younger]

Last year I bought a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 in 9mm.
It's got nasty recoil because it's so light weight, but it folds in half and is very packable.
Right now it's back at the factory getting a new barrel because of their recall!

I prefer my Marlin 1894s in 44 magnum (20" & 16" 'trapper' barrels) and my Winchester 94 in 357 magnum (16" 'trapper' barrel). Fun to shoot, very accurate, and they go well with my revolvers - no magazine compatibility issues! I could be mistaken, but I think 16" to 18" is the ideal barrel length for both 357 and 44 Magnums.

Lever action rifles are also more 'politically correct' (here in NJ, gun-politics are getting out of hand!).

 

[andy52]

I've been thinking about getting a pistol caliber carbine (PCC) in 9mm, mostly because that's the handgun caliber I'm interested in.

My biggest question is terminal performance. There are many 9mm defensive loads that are well-proven and perform well in gel when fired from pistols, but I don't know how that translates to carbine performance, with my biggest concern being how well the bullet stays together. Does it still penetrate adequately at the higher velocity? Does it fragment? Or is a 200fps bump in speed not enough for that to be a concern? My non-expert presumption is that a .45ACP JHP may be more likely to hold together and penetrate adequately than a 9mm JHP, but I don't have any facts/evidence to back that up.

I suppose if I ever actually get down to buying a PCC I'll look at that aspect a little more closely.

A lot of the terminal performance will be the type of bullets your using in the 9mm carbine. I don't use ballistic gel so I can only say how mines works with milk jugs fill with water. With Hornady 124gr XTP hand loads 4 jug penetration with good bullet retention and expansion, With 124gr hard cast that I make myself 5 jugs won't even began to stop the bullet it just blows through and keeps going.

 

[cybermgk]

I've been thinking about getting a pistol caliber carbine (PCC) in 9mm, mostly because that's the handgun caliber I'm interested in.

My biggest question is terminal performance. There are many 9mm defensive loads that are well-proven and perform well in gel when fired from pistols, but I don't know how that translates to carbine performance, with my biggest concern being how well the bullet stays together. Does it still penetrate adequately at the higher velocity? Does it fragment? Or is a 200fps bump in speed not enough for that to be a concern? My non-expert presumption is that a .45ACP JHP may be more likely to hold together and penetrate adequately than a 9mm JHP, but I don't have any facts/evidence to back that up.

I suppose if I ever actually get down to buying a PCC I'll look at that aspect a little more closely.

This guy actually tested head to head a CZ handgun with a CZ Carbine. He found slightly less penetration, but more expansion with the carbine. 147 gr seemed to perform better as far as enough penetration. Some 115 gr rds under penetrated on bare gel, 1 layer in the carbine. With 3 layers on the gel, even those penetrated fine, and still had more expansion.

Pistol vs Carbine and differences in ammunition performance.

I will say, my Ruger PC Carbine is extremely accurate at home defense, and definitely property defense range, compared to my handguns (well, in my hands). It is also a lot easier to get quick follow-on shots, as there is almost no muzzle rise. IMHO, makes a great partner to my Glock for Urban/Suburban/Wooded SHTF scenarios. Hella fun at the range. But then, so is my Henry lever in .357 with the 20" barrel. It pairs nicely with my S&W 4" 686-4.

And until they outlaw them, can take the 50 rd glock drum.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I've had the Beretta CX-4 carbine since; they came out..... My first hicap wonder-9 was a 92 Compact in 1988/89. I like and have both the Compact 13+1 and the Centurions which are 17/18+1 with flush fit magazines.

The CX4 gives me off-hand, rapid fire, fist size, 4-6 shot groups at 50yds with a small red dot sight .... and the option of Mec-gar and Factory 15,17,18,20 and 30 round magazines is attractive if the "S ever HTF".

45 vs 9mm...... an old argument .......but with the Beretta the argument is 10/12 .45 vs 20/30 9mm available rounds.

The CX4 feeds any hollowpoint I've fed it........but I believe even 2-3 rapid rounds of FMJ would still "hurt"..........the H&K M&P-5 was king of the hill for almost 4 decades.

.....contrary to many internet arguments..... I firmly believe no one wants to be shot with anything.....22lr ,.38special, 9mm or .308 to .300 blackout.

So I'm going with 2-3 maybe 6 rounds of 9mm vs 1 or 2 of .45s.....in a PCC, PDW

 

[cybermgk]

Lever action rifles are also more 'politically correct' (here in NJ, gun-politics are getting out of hand!).

Yes. Some AWBs, can make the Ruger PC Take Down Carbine I have, illegal, even with a 10 rd mag. On some of those I would have to permanently make the threaded barrel unusable. They still haven't come after Lever actions yet. Byt, that's why I have a rifle pistol combo with my S&W revolver and the Henry Rifle in .357. 9mm is a bit cheaper though.

 

[bulletslap]

For what it is worth I went with an 10 inch barrel on my SBR AR-15. It seemed to be the sweet spot between velocity and handyness.

If I were going to own one suppressed Rifle in a pistol caliber, it would be a Ruger 77/44 in .44 Magnum, extremely versatile.

 

[WCCPHD]

I'm waiting for it in 10MM, don't know what the ballistics would say, but I think it would be a great woods gun and a companion to my old Ruger 44 Carbine.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Guess I focused on semi's...........

I have three other favorite utility/general purpose Carbines

Ruger's 77/357 carbine; with a little 1-3x20 weaver shotgun scope

Winchester Trapper carbine in .357

and while not a PCC.... I've become fond of the .22 magnum...... 9mm muzzle energy (BBTI).......... not to loud, and a nice varmint/poachers round out to 100yds.


Ruger's RAR carbine in .22magnum .....9rd rotary magazine; with a red dot or 1-4 scope.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Thanks for the info, andy52 and cybermgk. It definitely makes me feel better about the potential of a 9mm PCC for home defense use.

For the longest time, especially when I was focused on revolvers, I thought a .357 Magnum lever action rifle would make for a great PCC. I still do, though I have to admit I like the ability of semi-auto PCCs to be fired one-handed, if necessary, more easily than a lever action. While statistically unlikely to happen, I can't help thinking about FBI Special Agent Ed Mireles operating a pump shotgun one-handed during the 1986 Miami Shootout.

For semi-autos, I was originally interested in an AR-style 9mm PCC because of the ubiquity of the AR platform, or possibly the Beretta CX4 since I'm a fan of the 92FS I have, but the new Ruger has me reconsidering that, especially after reading that it was a takedown model. That would make it easier for me to travel discreetly to and from the range. Maybe by year's end I'll have the funds to get a PCC.

Thanks for an interesting thread with good info.

 

[BAM-BAM]

LOL; ContinentalOP's ---saw this over on the B______Forum;

So I checked it out on Amazon; now for the outrageous sum of $33.....

MY CX4 now rides in a KALA Deluxe Baritone Ukulele Gig Bag.....

 

[dusty3030]

I'm waiting for it in 10MM, don't know what the ballistics would say, but I think it would be a great woods gun and a companion to my old Ruger 44 Carbine.

The FBI is ditching their MP5/10 subguns. Reckon we could get them to release those and sell them as surplus?

That gun is on my short list of things I keep asking Santa for but don't get. (List also includes a personal Gulfstream, my own island, and Linda Carter from about 1977 in full Wonder Women garb.)

 

[WCCPHD]

The FBI is ditching their MP5/10 subguns. Reckon we could get them to release those and sell them as surplus?

That gun is on my short list of things I keep asking Santa for but don't get. (List also includes a personal Gulfstream, my own island, and Linda Carter from about 1977 in full Wonder Women garb.)

I'm fairly certain they will destroy their surplus guns or pass them on to another Federal Agency. That said, we can always hope. I would be happy to get my hands on a box or two of their 10MM MP5/10 mags as I have a 40 caliber MP5 clone.