9x19 & 9x21

[Jeff423]

I was recently given a nice set of dies for 9x21 mm. However what I need is 9x19 Luger. I initially thought it would be like .38 Spec. and .357, but after looking in the manual I see that 9x21 is a straight wall vs the tapered 9x19.
Can/should I use these for 9x19?

Never mind - I just checked Hornady's website and found out it's the same die set for both.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

There are pretty much two load ranges in 9x21. 9x21 Largo is a medium pressure load that mimics 9mm Lugar. The other is 9x21 Styer. That is a pretty stout load and not recommended for the Star and Astra pistols. Think of it as "9x21+P+", it would be on the hot side of 38 Super+P!

Ivan

 

[ReloadforFun]

I believe Largo is 9x23, not 9x21. I seem to recall the Steyr also being 9x23.

Standard 9x21 is ballistically the same as a 9x19, but gets around some politics. It was politically motivated.

The only other 21mm case that comes to mind is the 30 Luger.

 

[Jeff423]

Thanks for the replies.

 

[mikld]

9x21 cartridge - Google Search

 

[Nevada Ed]

9mm's............

9x17............... Kurtz (.380)
9x18 .............. Markarov
9x19 .............. Luger (military)
9x21 longer case for cilvilian use.
9x23 .............. .38 Super 33k CUP 124gr:1400fps c/o Major events.

per my old notes.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, but...

9x18 Makarov is really 9.2mm = .364".

There are two real 9x18s, the 9mm Ultra of 1936 when the Luftwaffe wanted its own pistol, and the 9mm Police of about 1975 for German police, both overshadowed by the move to 9mm Para.
The term Ultra is often used for both, but the cases are not the same.

9x23 can be 9mm Bergman Bayard/Spanish Largo or 9mm Steyr or 9x23 CP Elite/Winchester. Or 9x23 SR .38 Auto or Super.

 

[DWalt]

There are many different 9x23-named cartridges, most commonly those previously mentioned. The 9x23 Largo (aka Bergman-Bayard) and the 9x23 Steyr have virtually identical rimless cases, along with the 9x23 Winchester (which is sort of a high pressure Magnum 9mm). Those cases all have a slight taper, as does the 9x19 case. The .38 ACP and the dimensionally identical .38 Super are also 9x23s, but have no case taper, and also they have semi-rims. However, I reload all of them with a set of .38 Super dies, with no issues. (.38 Super FL sizing dies also work well for .38 S&W cases). Starline makes a case called the 9mm (9x23) Super Comp, essentially identical to the Largo and Steyr cases. There is another longer 9mm, the 9x25 Mauser Export, but it has a 2mm longer case and was made for the Mauser Broomhandle pistol and some later SMGs. Most .38 Super handguns can also use 9mm Steyr and Largo cartridges, except the 9mm Steyr cartridge OAL may be too long to fit in some magazines made for the .38 Super, preventing more than three or four cartridges to be loaded The 9x21 was purely a European political invention, made for those countries which prohibited any pistol chambered for a "Military" caliber from civilian use. No idea if that restriction still exists.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Well, then there was the 9x18 Ultra in a few Mauser HSc...

Actually, as I recall one of these (and a very nice example if memory serves?) was actually For Sale on this forum a while back.

On another note, Hornady twice sent me their sizing die marked for 9x21 as a replacement for my 38 Special / 357 Magnum sizing die (046528 or 046527?) when I called about the Titanium Nitride (carbide?) sizing ring being loose (it would actually rotate with finger pressure)... Funny thing, these work just fine for resizing both 38 Specials & 357 Magnum brass! In my original post here about this back in April of 2017, gwpercle (Gary) was kind enough to respond to my concerns and indicated that the "Titanium Nitride" ring at 0.379" was actually correct for both calibers since the 9x21 is actually a straight-walled case as well.

Hornady, however, shows a different part number for the 9x21 on their websight: 046516 is shown for 9x19 & 9x21...?

I am SO confused!

Cheers!

 

[Nevada Ed]

Well, then there was the 9x18 Ultra in a few Mauser HSc...

Actually, as I recall one of these (and a very nice example if memory serves?) was actually For Sale on this forum a while back.

On another note, Hornady twice sent me their sizing die marked for 9x21 as a replacement for my 38 Special / 357 Magnum sizing die (046528 or 046527?) when I called about the Titanium Nitride (carbide?) sizing ring being loose (it would actually rotate with finger pressure)... Funny thing, these work just fine for resizing both 38 Specials & 357 Magnum brass! In my original post here about this back in April of 2017, gwpercle (Gary) was kind enough to respond to my concerns and indicated that the "Titanium Nitride" ring at 0.379" was actually correct for both calibers since the 9x21 is actually a straight-walled case as well.

Hornady, however, shows a different part number for the 9x21 on their websight: 046516 is shown for 9x19 & 9x21...?

I am SO confused!

Cheers!

I know where you are coming from, when I go shopping and run
into those phony Euro measurements & weights.

A pint of boose please.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

On another note, Hornady twice sent me their sizing die marked for 9x21 as a replacement for my 38 Special / 357 Magnum sizing die (046528 or 046527?) when I called about the Titanium Nitride (carbide?) sizing ring being loose (it would actually rotate with finger pressure)... Funny thing, these work just fine for resizing both 38 Specials & 357 Magnum brass! In my original post here about this back in April of 2017, gwpercle (Gary) was kind enough to respond to my concerns and indicated that the "Titanium Nitride" ring at 0.379" was actually correct for both calibers since the 9x21 is actually a straight-walled case as well.

Hornady, however, shows a different part number for the 9x21 on their websight: 046516 is shown for 9x19 & 9x21...?

The 9x21 is a tapered straight-walled case just like it's parent case the 9x19.

No idea why Hornady would send you a 9x21 die to use for 38/357 which is straight with no taper.

.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I was only repeating what Hornady told me... Twice.

That, and my own personal experience in resizing a thousand (or so?) 38 Specials & 357 Magnums with what they sent me with no problems.

Cheers!

P.S. According to the description of the 9x21 IMI cartridge on the Military Wiki it is a "rimless straight" (walled cartridge?)... So, no taper (although the drawings I have seen on the internet depict it to have more taper than a 30/30!)

 

[BLUEDOT37]

All of the 9x21 specs I see show it has virtually the same taper as the 9x19 & the 9x23 but some how they keep mentioning straight walled.

Parent cartridge 9×19mm Parabellum
Case type Rimless, straight
Bullet diameter 9.03 mm (0.356 in)
Neck diameter 9.63 mm (0.379 in)
Base diameter 9.93 mm (0.391 in)
Rim diameter 9.96 mm (0.392 in)
Rim thickness 1.27 mm (0.050 in)
Case length 21.15 mm (0.833 in)
Overall length 29.75 mm (1.171 in)

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