A Canadian Viewpoint

[talkative]

Sir: A couple of points.
First, I am from north of the border -- 'way north.'
Second, I have been involved in the 'gun fight' here in Canada since 1969.
Third: I make no pretense at being 'educated,' or 'all-knowing.'
Fourth: Having said that, I have engaged in all types of debates on the subject of 'gun control' here -- i.e: TV, Radio, Print media, public and political -- either one on one, or whatever the 'other side' wished, and given numerous public speeches on the subject.
Fifth: To date, I have not been bested in any of my positions.
Sixth: I have always operated from (what I feel) is an often overlooked premise on the issue.
Seventh: Since our last election, I have at least had the satisfaction of seeing firearms owners here 'make their mark' politically -- to my intense satisfaction.
Eighth: I have followed your fight to some extent during those many years and feel I may (MAY) have some comments to offer which might be of use in your ongoing fight.
Ninth: However, being 'north of the border' I would not presume to 'tell your firearms owners what to do,' but I would, if anyone wished, add my comments.
Tenth: I would never do this without seeking approval so as not to be seen as an 'interferring outsider.'

As a point of interest, I formed two pro-gun organizations during that period of time and one, the NFA (National Firearms Association) is still in operation.
I shall await comments from you.

Thank you.

 

[talkative]

Sorry, but I forgot to mention on all-important fact -- as a "newbie," that term also applies to my computer knowledge -- borderline zero -- so if I make errors in my use thereof, please forgive me until I grasp the fundamentals. Thanks

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Having followed with great interest the Canadian experience throughout the C96 debacle, I would welcome any and all input from the Canadian side of the border. Canadian citizens have very real, and very recent, experience with onerous gun control laws.

For those who may have missed the big show, the Canadian Parliament passed C96 (late at night, out of sight from the public and media) requiring licensing of firearms owners, registration of all firearms, regulation of ammunition sales, etc. In later debate the government promised that the measure would cost no more than a certain amount (C$2 million is the figure that sticks in my mind). Several years later, with less than 10% (or so) compliance, many millions of dollars having been spent, and the government stonewalled all inquiries regarding costs and compliance, fighting every attempt for revealing the actual costs and other data.

Meanwhile, LUFA (the Law-Abiding Unregistered Firearms Association) was formed. Public rallies took place in many locations with prominent citizens (including a retired RCMP official) displaying their unregistered firearms and challenging the government to arrest them. The rallying cry was "Come and go to jail with us".

When the last day came for legal compliance with registration requirements thousands of Canadians flooded government offices at the last minute, resulting in their being turned away. Each one provided affidavits for others, attesting to the fact that they had attempted to comply with the law but were not permitted to do so (excellent evidence in the event one had to defend against criminal charges later).

The government then required mail-in registrations. The response was to fill out the registration forms (retaining the registrants' copies), purchase postal money orders for registration fees (retaining the purchasers' copies), then throw the originals into the trash. Thus, no one could prove that the law had not been complied with. The firearms registry was unable to compile or report accurate data for years after registrations began anyway, so this was rather effective.

A number of Canadian provincial governments adopted legislation outlawing any attempt to enforce C96 within those provinces, putting the national government on notice very effectively.

LUFA's official website was such an embarrassment to the Canadian government that a court order was issued to shut it down. LUFA had another site up within days (hosted, I believe, in a location not subject to Canadian government intervention).

After more than ten years, and many times the promised cost ceiling for implementation (requiring the Canadian equivalent of Freedom of Information Act inquiries and court battles to determine), C96 was overturned.

These are just a few highlights, recited from memory so please forgive any inaccuracies. Overall, the Canadian experience has provided a blueprint for effective resistance to governmental excess in a free society. Peaceful disobedience, broadly applied and highly publicized, was capable of overcoming a government's attempts to impose the firearms registration and owner licensing requirements.

Also displayed to perfection was the utter arrogance of elected and appointed government officials intent upon imposing their agenda on the citizenry. Obfuscation, outright lies, governmental stonewalling of legal processes, censorship of public media, and every other form of governmental abuse were the rule rather than the exception throughout the debate.

Here in the United States our mainstream media almost completely ignored what was going on in Canada. As I attempted to follow the events it was difficult to obtain any information.

It is definitely not in the interests of free people to ignore what Canadians can share with us on these subjects.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Speaking for myself, I'd welcome any and all information from Canada regarding gun laws. I have some great Canadian friends and a high regard for their country.

 

[Engine 21]

I would also welcome input from our neighbors to the north. Canada is a great country, inspite of the government position on firearms.

 

[jtpur]

did I miss something or is this thread a carry over from something else...feels as if its half way through a discussion from the first post

 

[talkative]

To each of you gentlemen, I say hello -- from 'way up north'. It may be of interest (and may not be) that I have been involved directly in this 'gun fight' since 1969.

I formed two organizations, the first being FARO (Firearms and Responsible Ownership) and the second being the NFA (National Firearms Association,) which is still in existence. Among the many lessons I learned during this period was that, by and large, Canadian firearms owners spent a considerable amount of time attending the 'teddy bear picnics' -- if I can use that term.

It also taught me that, no matter how hard you may believe and try, when you use your own limited finances for this type of endeavour, you lose. However, I kept active (however quietly) from '82 to now and at least lived long enough to see those government(s) dumped in no uncertain terms. I say 'those governments' because, with the exception of our last government which was a minority until the last election, 'gun control' was on the agenda of EVERY government from 1969 to 2008. Most Canadian firearms owners either did not know that, or did not care and largely ignored the dangers they faced -- in my opinion, this is what develops when 'good living' is always possible -- not that I have any objection to it -- unless it removes one from reality.

This is just a small bit of information for those of you who may be interested and, if no one objects too loudly, or I am not considered an 'intruder,' I would be happy to share some of my experiences during that time. In passing (and not as a 'badge of honour') I engaged in a multitude of public speeking events, media debates (TV-Radio-Print), public and political debates and I am proud to say (once I got myself on the right track) I was never bested in any of those forums. As I have said, I adhere only to what I perceive and believe to be fundamental principles and they have served me well.

On that note, gentlemen, I shall await replies, if any -- and thank you for the opportunity to speak here.

 

[LOBONCA]

Hello Talkative. A warm welcome to you!!

Please keep typing and sharing.

You siad, "I have always operated from (what I feel) is an often overlooked premise on the issue."

What is this premise?

I look forward to hearing back from you!

 

[talkative]

Hello Talkative. A warm welcome to you!!

Please keep typing and sharing.

You siad, "I have always operated from (what I feel) is an often overlooked premise on the issue."

What is this premise?

I look forward to hearing back from you!

The "premise" that I always operated from -- always in the context of Canada/U.S.A social/political/legal systems -- was: "It is not a proper function of the law to place a peaceful person pursuing peaceful activities in jeopardy."

In my view that statement is not debatable or disputable -- it could be discussed -- but ALWAYS within the context outlined -- and I never allowed myself to be drawn away from that stance into specious arguments, thereby forcing the 'opposition' to justify everything they would say, if it countered that position.

It worked for me.

Thanks for asking -- hope this helps -- and I am not shy about stating my position and arguments with regard to so many of the 'other side's' arguments.

 

[Snowbandit]

I look forward to information from talkative about the firearms fight in Canada. There many things I would love to see and do in that country but refuse to cross their border and spend one dime there until they overturn their draconian gun laws. Much as I would like to go up there for some fishing it isn't going to happen without a handgun.

 

[LOBONCA]

I also use, that it is the innate right of every person to be able to defend themselves. Sometimes that requires responding with force equal or greater than that which is imposed on you.

With your argument, could that not also be applied to those who seek to legalize drugs? (which I am not in favor of)

 

[talkative]

marijuana

Sorry to be so tardy in responding -- I have not forgotten your point.

Indeed, although that subject has never been in the forefront of my thoughts, I would have to say yes, if it was legal, then it is still not a proper function of the law to place a peaceful person pursuing peaceful activities in jeopardy.

That said, it would be entirely incumbent upon the government of the day to sort out the necessary intracacies involved in its legalization -- paying particular attention to the "peaceful person pursuing peaceful acitivities" in mind at all times. Governments have historically had a bad habit of making some things illegal and some things legal with absolutely no realization of the implications such legislation would (does) have on those who offer no intentional harm or threat to anyone else.

To quote one of your past presidents, Lyndon B. Johnson, "Law must be examined in light of the harm it may cause and the harm it will cause if (when) it is improperly administered."

A case in point. Up here some many years ago, we had a Minister of Justice who (I would hope) was attempting to put into one of his proposals a point he may have hoped would accomplish 'something,' with respect to lawful firerms ownership/use that: "...a person may have in his possession a reasonable amount of ammunition."

I had to point out to him that you cannot use the term "reasonable amount" in law, simply because (to use an example), a "reasonable amount of alcohol" could and would be seen in two diametrically opposite views -- one by an alcoholic, and one by a teetotaller -- and yes, each assessment would necessarily be equally correct in either view.

However, my premise stands in that, at this moment in time the government here has not taken the approach of making marijuana legal, so the point is moot.

But, with respect to legislation affecting the lawful ownership/use of firearms, my position has never altered.

My thanks for making me do some serious thinking with your point. Hope to hear back from you.

 

[russp1]

I'm hoping to relocate to Canada a few years from now to work as an aquarist, possibly in Vancouver. Is there a good online site to look at Canadian gun laws? It's something I hadn't even thought about (I'm sure there are many others).

 

[talkative]

I'm hoping to relocate to Canada a few years from now to work as an aquarist, possibly in Vancouver. Is there a good online site to look at Canadian gun laws? It's something I hadn't even thought about (I'm sure there are many others).

My suggestion would be for you to contact both, the CSSA and the NFA -- as both organizations have online sites and are 'in the loop,' so to speak -- although I have been fighting this type of law up here since 1969, at this point in time I have to admit that I am not 'right up there' on the present law -- best of luck and please let me know -- you can also get a lot of information from a Canadian site called "Gunnutz."