A couple of thoughts regarding semi vs auto & caliber

[otis24]

I read an interview with one of the FBI agents involved in the Miami shootout.

A couple of take aways.

First, auto vs revolver. The FBI was equipped with six shot revolvers. After the shootout, the FBI went to autos. As he stated "If you are reloading, you aren't observing or fighting. With two 15 round magazines you have 30 rounds. That would require loading my revolver five times.

I love revolvers but carry an auto for self defense. It is better to have more ammo and not need it than to need it and not have it.

This guy grew up learning to shoot a .45 ACP 1911. After he retired, he was surprised to find out that the FBI had gone back to the 9mm. He expounded upon how the shootout had led to ammo development and how the FBI began to quantify ammo effectiveness and "stopping power". The takeaway, bigger (caliber) doesn't mean better and you get more capacity with 9mm.

As a long time revolver fan, my thinking has evolved to appreciate the value of capacity and the role of bullet design in effectiveness as opposed to caliber.

 

[OKFC05]

If you start with loaded guns, 30 rounds from a 6-shot revolver requires FOUR reloads, not five. As a non-LEO who does not try to arrest felons, I have more risk of getting struck by a falling satellite than getting in a 30-round shootout, just to add some perspective.

 

[otis24]

If you start with loaded guns, 30 rounds from a 6-shot revolver requires FOUR reloads, not five. As a non-LEO who does not try to arrest felons, I have more risk of getting struck by a falling satellite than getting in a 30-round shootout, just to add some perspective.

Self-defense, particularly with a handgun, is always a compromise and to some degree a about managed risks.

The first time you need a weapon and don't have it may be the last time you ever need a weapon. The first time you need 30 rounds and don't have them may be the last time you ever need 30 rounds.

 

[YkcorCal]

The first effective round placed on target is always the most important. As more states under the control of Progressive Democrats seek to limit civilian magazine capacity to ten rounds it begs the question as to effective ammo verses capacity. Not all rounds in any caliber are created equal in stopping attacks by felons. Even many law enforcement officers are not deep into ballistics and which specific rounds in each caliber are the best; some are but some are not. As some have said here each round you fire you are accountable for and as some say they come "with a lawyer attached" if you hit innocent civilians if fired in a negligent manner. What a civilian needs can be quite different from a law enforcement officer needs as law enforcement has the sworn duty to apprehend the bad guy while as a civilian we try to avoid all conflict. Still some of us that have seen military service and like to be prepared for all situations however as civilians we still have the duty to avoid the use of deadly force if possible. One option where it is legal is a high capacity 9MM but there are other options for those trained to use them.

 

[adwjc]

Back in the day, I worked for a PD that mandated revolvers. The unions were furiously lobbying for semi autos,and finally (1974) we were given the option, at our own expense, of qualifying with and carrying the S&W 39, to be loaded with FMJ.

In my view the only advantage was the ease and speed of the reload, I saw no advantage, and several disadvantages to the 9mm round we would have to use, at that time.

A PO in my precinct got himself in a jam with a nutcase armed with a huge knife, ended up shooting him 6 times in the chest and getting slashed in the face, shoulder and arms before he bludgeoned the guy to the ground with his empty revolver.

Would the 9mm have been any better in that instance? Maybe, although improved tactics might have given a different outcome, "training" in those days was still focused on PPC type shooting.

After the above incident, interest in switching to the semi rocketed, as well a reevaluation of the training regimen.

 

[otis24]

The first effective round placed on target is always the most important. As more states under the control of Progressive Democrats seek to limit civilian magazine capacity to ten rounds it begs the question as to effective ammo verses capacity. Not all rounds in any caliber are created equal in stopping attacks by felons. Even many law enforcement officers are not deep into ballistics and which specific rounds in each caliber are the best; some are but some are not. As some have said here each round you fire you are accountable for and as some say they come "with a lawyer attached" if you hit innocent civilians if fired in a negligent manner. What a civilian needs can be quite different from a law enforcement officer needs as law enforcement has the sworn duty to apprehend the bad guy while as a civilian we try to avoid all conflict. Still some of us that have seen military service and like to be prepared for all situations however as civilians we still have the duty to avoid the use of deadly force if possible. One option where it is legal is a high capacity 9MM but there are other options for those trained to use them.

Absolutely agree. But if/when avoidance fails, you need effective ammo and capacity. In the knife scenario cited above, a 7th or 8th round might have prevented potential close contact with a perp. Contact which could have been deadly for the officer. Even with better ammo, there is no guarantee of stopping a peep, depending on circumstances like drugs or psychosis.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Ahhhh, the dead horse firepower discussion, never mind the dead pony caliber discussion.....

If you're expecting trouble carry all of the ammunition you can and, if you can, bring friends who are carrying guns and all the ammunition they can carry.

If you are a law enforcement officer you wake up looking for trouble. Not in the literal sense but in the obvious sense of that's your job so trouble will come looking for you. In that case, 30 rounds is a good plan.

If you're a non-LEO private citizen going about your daily tasks you are generally NOT expecting or looking for trouble and, statistically speaking, your small, concealed carry handgun will do in all likelihood, be it a 5 shot J frame, 6 shot K frame, or your compact automatic pistol with 7, 8, or 9 rounds available. As a few examples of standard concealed carry handguns.

There are very few takeaways for private citizens from the FBI's Miami shootout. There are some technical points of information but if your wallet doesn't say FBI, XYPD, or similar, I wouldn't spend too much time on the subject for making personal gun carrying decisions.

As a long time revolver fan, my thinking has evolved to appreciate the value of capacity and the role of bullet design in effectiveness as opposed to caliber.

A J frame loaded with .38 Special wadcutters will get the job done, so will a Beretta 950 BS stoked with .25 ACP FMJ rounds. Maybe neither is ideal but both beat not leaving the house unarmed. Nine rounds of 115 grain 9mm in your M&P Shield will work fine, too. Don't get too wrapped around the axle on the rest of it.

 

[Echo40]

There is no ideal, one-size-fits-all platform for self-defense, and people in general are best served carrying whatever they're confident with and have trained with until they have become proficient. I guarantee that the guy who has been training with a 5-shot snubby his whole life is better equipped to deal with a threat than the keyboard commando who is constantly swapping out his carry gun in accordance with the latest trends and believes that he can legally justify blindly slinging lead everywhere to keep the enemy at bay until he can initiate a tactical withdraw to a strategically advantageous position in which he will surely be able to outgun the multiple determined attackers who have been known to raid drugstores during daylight hours.

 

[otis24]

A 5 shot J frame will get the job done..... until it doesn't. The pro-revolver crowd always resorts to the argument that those who carry autos will engage in "spray and pray" tactics while those who carry revolvers are more proficient out of necessity and less affected by the adrenaline that will affect the mind/body in an armed confrontation.

With today's autos, one can get improved capacity in a concealable package. The Glock 43X can be equipped with 2 Shield Arms 15 round magazines for a total of 31 rounds if you have one in the chamber.

The same people who argue that the average citizen has only a slight risk of facing multiple armed attackers also let the, IMHO, slight risk of an auto jamming dictate that they carry a revolver.

For those that like to prepare for a "worst case scenario", a high capacity auto with a proven 9mm round gives one the opportunity to do so in an affordable and concealable package.

 

[Ziggy2525]

At home, do you bring your pistol with you to the shower?

If you don't, you've made a risk assessment that you're "safe enough" in the shower to go there without a weapon.

How is that any different from someone assessing their risk and decidng they're OK carrying with 5 or 6 or 30. Or .22 or .38 or 9mm or .45?

Assess your risk and the tradeoffs of the different options. Make the choices that are best for you and move on.

 

[otis24]

At home, do you bring your pistol with you to the shower?

If you don't, you've made a risk assessment that you're "safe enough" in the shower to go there without a weapon.

How is that any different from someone assessing their risk and decidng they're OK carrying with 5 or 6 or 30. Or .22 or .38 or 9mm or .45?

Assess your risk and the tradeoffs of the different options. Make the choices that are best for you and move on.

Not saying that anyone's choice to carry a revolver, or a blunderbuss for that matter, in any caliber, is a bad or wrong choice. I am saying that some of the old arguments regarding caliber that may have once been valid are less so today due to bullet design and technology.

And societal changes have probably increased the likelihood that the civilian will be faced with having to defend himself/herself, and it is more probable that any such conflict will involve multiple attackers.

With that increased probability I think it prudent that due consideration be given to what "being prepared" means instead of blindly following a mantra of "5 shots was good enough for grandpa, 5 is good enough for me". This is no longer grandpa's world. The same circumstances that forced the FBI to seriously reevaluate their needs and quantify questions like "what is stopping power?" force us to ask those same questions as well. And the end of the day,best of luck to you no matter how you answer.

The danger isn't in the answer at which we arrive. The danger is in being afraid to ask the question. And as firearm and bullet technology evolve, the answers to those same questions are bound to change.

 

[500SNW]

I read an interview with one of the FBI agents involved in the Miami shootout. A couple of take aways. First, auto vs revolver. The FBI was equipped with six shot revolvers. After the shootout, the FBI went to autos. As he stated "If you are reloading, you aren't observing or fighting. With two 15 round magazines you have 30 rounds. That would require loading my revolver five times.

One more "take away" is that, to be fair, we need to consider that the FBI guys in the 1986 Miami shootout were going up against two opponents...at least one of which was wielding a Ruger Mini-14 RIFLE. Handgun of any sort vs hi-cap semi-auto .223 RIFLE is a recipe for disaster. Look at the murder of Deputy Kyle Dinkheller, he probably had a auto pistol with a capacity far greater than an FBI Model 13, but the suspect easily dispatched him with an old Iver Johnson M1 Carbine.

 

[smithra_66]

The first, second and third shots are FAR more important than the 28th, 29th, or 30th in almost any likely personal self defense scenario.

I'll take my 230 gr. Hydra Shoks out of my 1911 or full power 125 gr. JHPs out of my model 19 over any 9mm pistol.

I'll take my chances with these "low capacity" firearms.

 

[tlawler]

There is no ideal, one-size-fits-all platform for self-defense, and people in general are best served carrying whatever they're confident with and have trained with until they have become proficient. I guarantee that the guy who has been training with a 5-shot snubby his whole life is better equipped to deal with a threat than the keyboard commando who is constantly swapping out his carry gun in accordance with the latest trends and believes that he can legally justify blindly slinging lead everywhere to keep the enemy at bay until he can initiate a tactical withdraw to a strategically advantageous position in which he will surely be able to outgun the multiple determined attackers who have been known to raid drugstores during daylight hours.

Well said, sir.

 

[otis24]

The first, second and third shots are FAR more important than the 28th, 29th, or 30th in almost any likely personal self defense scenario.

I'll take my 230 gr. Hydra Shoks out of my 1911 or full power 125 gr. JHPs out of my model 19 over any 9mm pistol.

I'll take my chances with these "low capacity" firearms.

I think that is true of dealing with ONE aggressor. If the first few rounds land on target and fail to stop an agressor, and there can be many reasons for that, the next rounds become more important. Although at that point, my strategy would be more focused on a tactical retreat.

 

[NY-1]

One more "take away" is that, to be fair, we need to consider that the FBI guys in the 1986 Miami shootout were going up against two opponents...at least one of which was wielding a Ruger Mini-14 RIFLE. Handgun of any sort vs hi-cap semi-auto .223 RIFLE is a recipe for disaster. Look at the murder of Deputy Kyle Dinkheller, he probably had a auto pistol with a capacity far greater than an FBI Model 19, but the suspect easily dispatched him with an old Iver Johnson M1 Carbine.

You've highlighted a major, often overlooked, takeaway from the '86 FBI shootout. The felons they went up against were known to carry a Mini-14 or were otherwise armed with long guns in previous robberies. Anyone confronting them with handguns would've been at a disadvantage, including the two agents (IIRC) on that scene with 9mm semi-autos. This excellent YouTube retrospective on the incident was put out a few years ago. It's most definitely worth a watch.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv8cByaVyNQ[/ame]

 

[otis24]

Another take away from that is that if you are facing a perp with a high power rifle, it is that much more important that your handgun/ammo choice be capable.

The agent interviewed also stated that arrests no longer became a matter of "Hey,Joe! My suspect has been spotted at the corner of 5th and Vine. Want to go help me arrest him?". Now, an arrest plan is put into place.

 

[tops]

I find it hard to believe that in a self defense situation a bunch of bullets in a gun is worth two cents. It has been shown that at 21 ft. an aggressor can be on you before you can fire a shot. If there are several aggressors they will have you beat too the ground before you can pull the trigger 5 times. If they are armed they will be shooting while you are so you are receiving more bullets than you are giving. By the time you shoot 5 you will look like a sieve. Larry

 

[ISCS Yoda]

otis24, you're mixing your metaphors, or something along those lines.

If you're talking about "political terrorists" surrounding your home and threatening you with bodily harm you need a rifle. Preferably a high capacity, semi-auto rifle to not only take out multiple targets but to literally avoid having to reload. Are you thus prepared? What ammunition do you use if you are thus prepared? Because my "multi-cal" ARs are stoked with standard "5.56 NATO/.223" hardball ammunition because that's what will work unfailingly.

My bathroom revolver is stoked with .38 Special hardball and a couple of HPs. I don't tote that gun around - it IS available whilst I shower and shave, etc. Are you that prepared while you spend your time worrying about ogives and meplats and powder charges?

That's not a personal attack, I am sure you're well prepared on the street but my point is you're wasting mental energy on the least important things IMHO.

If I'm faced with multiple aggressors on date night my defensive tool is going to be a 5 shot J frame, maybe 6 shot K frame, or perhaps an 8 or 9 shot 9mm pistol. In any case multiple aggressors will face multiple gunshots from someone who knows how to fight with a handgun. But if I'm headed into Frito Crispos gang territory I'll carry two guns - why I'd be going there I don't know but it's really the only time I would be concerned with multiple aggressors.

Okay, there are two other times I worry about multiple aggressors. One is in a shopping mall but I don't generally go to such places so it's a minimal issue. The other is in my house of worship because such places are frequently targeted. That's the only time I carry a reload magazine for pistol.

Otherwise, it's beating a dead horse. But I said that already.

 

[500SNW]

I find it hard to believe that in a self defense situation a bunch of bullets in a gun is worth two cents. It has been shown that at 21 ft. an aggressor can be on you before you can fire a shot. If there are several aggressors they will have you beat too the ground before you can pull the trigger 5 times. If they are armed they will be shooting while you are so you are receiving more bullets than you are giving. By the time you shoot 5 you will look like a sieve. Larry

And that's why I think a J or K frame snub is one of the best things a person can carry. In a grappling situation, or with someone on top of you they can be fired from inside a pocket and/or they are more likely to fire if the BG should grab your weapon. The slide cannot be pushed out of battery rendering it unable to fire and/or rechamber like on a semi auto. And getting back on topic the FBI guys were in Florida and probably wearing suits in the hot and sticky weather...so it's no wonder they were carrying small frame, short barrel revolvers.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I find it hard to believe that in a self defense situation a bunch of bullets in a gun is worth two cents. It has been shown that at 21 ft. an aggressor can be on you before you can fire a shot. If there are several aggressors they will have you beat too the ground before you can pull the trigger 5 times. If they are armed they will be shooting while you are so you are receiving more bullets than you are giving. By the time you shoot 5 you will look like a sieve. Larry

That's not really accurate. The so-called 21 foot rule is a knife at a gunfight rule. To wit, if at that close a distance you are faced with an aggressor with a knife you are justified to shoot. That's the root of that rule. It has nothing to do with several aggressors beating you to the ground.

Secondarily, unless your aggressors are (1) gang bangers set out on a Clockwork Orange excursion it would be rare for multiple aggressors to start shooting at you at 21 feet. That's movie baloney. (2) If YOU are their particular target then sure, they'll be firing at you from a distance because their one goal is assassination of YOU. Otherwise, again, don't watch too many movies or TV shows if you're going to take them to heart.

 

[500SNW]

If you're talking about "political terrorists" surrounding your home and threatening you with bodily harm you need a rifle. Preferably a high capacity, semi-auto rifle to not only take out multiple targets but to literally avoid having to reload. Are you thus prepared?

Technically, I am one of those you might call "unprepared" as I don't own and AR or AK. But I do believe that if were talking about defending the home from groups of predators, that multiple weapons is every bit as good as a single "hi-cap" rifle. If a homeowner has a couple pump shotguns loaded, or a couple lever guns and some sort of rifle...I would say that is sufficient to compensate for their lack of a military style weapon. The Confederate cavalry raiders in Missouri and Kansas being limited to BP percussion revolvers knew this problem well and made up for the lack of firepower and quick reloads by carrying multiple revolvers...sometimes a single guy having four on his person and a couple more on his horse.

 

[ContinentalOp]

A 5 shot J frame will get the job done..... until it doesn't.

The same can be said for any gun. What about the Illinois police officer who engaged a single armed suspect, striking him with 20+ rounds of .45ACP JHP, firing nearly all the rounds in his Glock 21 and two spare mags?

There are always going to be outliers. There's nothing wrong with preparing for such events. I've carried a double-stack 9mm, a spare mag, and snubby revolver as a BUG with a reload. In the same high-crime city I've carried a snubby revolver and a speed strip. Nowadays I split the difference with a 1911 and a snubby BUG. And a snubby or two is still a carry option from time-to-time. But no matter how many rounds, mags, speedloaders, etc., you carry, you should have a plan for what to do if none of that works.

I'm not a LEO, so for me a self defense gun is primarily a "break contact" tool. I want to stop the attack long enough for me to run away, probably screaming like a little girl. While there are instances of multiple attackers pressing their assault, the majority of such incidents I've seen is the bad guys stumbling over each other to get out of there as soon as their intended victim fires. And again, we're talking outlier events if they do press their assualt. If that's a concern, then there's nothing wrong with preparing for that.

As people with more experience than me have said, you're more likely to run out of time than run out of ammo.

Ultimately, mindset and proficiency are going to be more important than what kind of gun you carry, how many rounds/reloads you have, or what caliber you use.

Just my opinion.

 

[Donn]

Another, "what if, yeah but," feeding frenzy.

 

[otis24]

Lots of good points.

For me it comes back to "If you are busy reloading, you aren't fighting or observing your threat/threats". With a high capacity auto, that is one less thing you may have to worry about or focus upon.

The chances of surviving an attack when faced with multiple determined attackers are not good in the best of situations. I would surmise that anything that you can do to tip the odds in your favor, like more ammo capacity, the better.

The same could be said for facing a single determined attacker who might be on drugs or suffering a psychosis.

 

[YkcorCal]

Absolutely agree. But if/when avoidance fails, you need effective ammo and capacity. In the knife scenario cited above, a 7th or 8th round might have prevented potential close contact with a perp. Contact which could have been deadly for the officer. Even with better ammo, there is no guarantee of stopping a peep, depending on circumstances like drugs or psychosis.

I agree, just as in the case where perps have taken a dozen 9mm HPs, or a half dozen .45 ACPHPs and a couple of loads of double 00 buck to the chest and continued to fight the police. There are no magic bullets in all circumstances with all suspects. Some people surrender with a scratch while others do not until they are stopped with hits to the spine or central nervous system like the brain.

My sister's first husband was in the Houston PD and was part of a car chase where the perps were shooting at the perusing patrol cars. One of the officers using a 4" .44 Magnum returned fire striking the driver through the back window of the car in the knocking him out cold. The suspect was taken to the ER where the physician on duty found the expanded round on the side of the suspect's head under his scalp slid it back to the entry point at the back of his head and then removed it. Sutured up his scalp and said the guy was going to have one heck of a headache but otherwise he was good to go to jail. Go figure.

Sometimes even a twenty round 9MM runs dry. Time for a New York reload as in a back up gun sounds to me.

 

[Telecaster]

If 31 rounds is good, isn't 50 better? Where does it stop?

 

[YkcorCal]

I highly recommend to everyone they study Tactical Anatomy such as that taught by Dr. Williams in his "Tactical Anatomy Systems" to increase their ability to employ stopping shots with minimum number of rounds.

"Tactical Anatomy Instructor Manual"

 

[ContinentalOp]

You can also look up "Cardiac Box". Basically, it's a box bordered by a horizontal line along the clavicles, vertical lines through each nipple, and another horizontal line at about the diaphragm. It's where the heart, lungs, and aorta reside, as well as the spine. Here's a good picture:

When I go shooting I often put up a silhouette target and then put a 8.5x11" sheet of blank white paper to correspond to the cardiac box, or use a negative target and cut out the cardiac box from the silhouette. The X-ring on many silhouette targets is too low.

 

[otis24]

If 31 rounds is good, isn't 50 better? Where does it stop?

It comes down to whatever you are proficient with and can/will carry on your person based on how you dress. I can carry a S&W Shield and a spare mag just as easily as I can a S&W 642 and two speed strips.

On the other end, a S&W 642 is probably no larger or heavier than a Bond Arms .45 Derringer and has 5 shots as opposed to two. If 5 shots are good enough, why aren't two good enough?