A deadly mistake!

[Deceasedeye]

No round in the chamber can get you killed! It takes both hands to rack a slide. What if you need one hand for something else (there is a myriad of reasons possible) you might even be shot in one arm. This is a mistake made by hundreds if not thousands every day. Don't make this mistake!

 

[delcrossv]

Thousands every day.
??? Okayyyyy......

 

[Rocket3]

Much safer......................................for the other guy

 

[Jdavis]

I agree completely. If a person feels insecure carrying with a round in the chamber, get a gun with an external safety. 1911s are normally carried with the safety engaged. Train with the safety engaged and it will become second nature to you to thumb the safety off as you draw your weapon.

 

[Rpg]

Some very skilled individuals trained by the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) carry handguns with an empty chamber.

The problem for everyone else carrying that way is that they, almost by definition, don't have the skill necessary to effectively employ a gun carried with an empty chamber for self defense.

 

[Pisgah]

I agree that you should always carry with a loaded chamber. But if you believe it takes two hands to rack a slide, you need further training. Almost the first thing I try to figure out when I get a new auto-pistol is how to rack the slide with one hand. It's sometimes difficult to figure out, but there's always a way, and if you're going to carry it, you need to know how -- just in case.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Thousands every day.
??? Okayyyyy......

Actually, yes, thousands every day. I can't get my own girl friend to carry her pistol with a round in the chamber but we have more training to do. She'll get there eventually.

If you think these new gun buyers out there buying pistols by the boatload, never mind ARs, many of whom are untrained, don't slap their magazines into their pistols and refuse to rack the slide, then you have not met Mr. and Mrs. Average New Shooter American. It's as common a practice as one can imagine.

Some very skilled individuals trained by the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) carry handguns with an empty chamber.

Yes, that's true - but the operative term there is "very skilled". The IDF adopted that carry method back long ago when they had a huge assortment of differing pistols imported from everywhere and they needed one method of training. IDF personnel, and veterans, can draw and rack and commence shooting a pistol in the literal blink of an eye. As you so aptly put it but I shall paraphrase, Mr. and Mrs. Average New Shooter American don't have that skill.

Actually, I'd wager that a lot of S&W Forum members can do it fairly easily. Maybe not at the speed of a trained Soldier but fast enough for most purposes. But the folks around this campfire are definitely very experienced if not very skilled.

And then there's this:

But if you believe it takes two hands to rack a slide, you need further training. Almost the first thing I try to figure out when I get a new auto-pistol is how to rack the slide with one hand. It's sometimes difficult to figure out, but there's always a way, and if you're going to carry it, you need to know how -- just in case.

That's good for you. That's good for me. That's not good for Mr. and Mrs. Average New Shooter American who often used to dislike handguns, or fear then, or even hate them. But even omitting the "anti" issue these folks are not training the way "gun people" train, they just want a gun to protect hearth and home in troubled times. Some will train, some will become real gun people, and some will forever carry their pistols without a round in the chamber.

It jus' beez dat weigh..........

Side note: The first thing I do with a new pistol is determine how to decock it. If it has a decocker it's easy; if it doesn't then I practice gently lowering the hammer. Because I never carry a pistol except with a round in the chamber. Period.

 

[Oracle]

I know a couple of people who carry their guns "condition one" with an appendix holster.

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[mikerjf]

In some poll or report of the last couple years, it was noted that in a majority of defensive uses the gun was not on the person... it was in a drawer, in the safe, in the next room, etc. I remember thinking that whether a round was chambered was almost irrelevant in that scenario.

 

[Borderboss]

No matter how many hands it takes you to rack a slide, the problem is the time it takes you to rack a slide. You'll be lucky to not have been shot by the time you're in the fight.

What if you're in a store that's being robbed, and you get a chance to launch a "counter ambush" because the bad guy has lost focus. This happens a lot. Now your counter ambush is thwarted because you have to spend a second or two racking the slide before you're even ready to go.

This will sound harsh, but I mean it. If you're not confident enough with a gun to carry it with a loaded chamber, stop carrying a gun. You're just going to get yourself hurt, or worse.

 

[AJ]

Condition One carry is the way I was taught while a member of a Fleet Anti-Terrorist Security Team way back in the late 1980's. That said we where also trained how to chamber a round one handed. We were shown three different ways to load a round one handed and had to practice each of them in training.

 

[VaTom]

Get a double action revolver - problem solved.

 

[Deceasedeye]

I agree that you should always carry with a loaded chamber. But if you believe it takes two hands to rack a slide, you need further training. Almost the first thing I try to figure out when I get a new auto-pistol is how to rack the slide with one hand. It's sometimes difficult to figure out, but there's always a way, and if you're going to carry it, you need to know how -- just in case.

I have seen a one armed trapeze artist but only one and he's gone. I don't think you'll have many training on the one handed rack it's much easier to keep one in the chamber.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I have seen a one armed trapeze artist but only one and he's gone. I don't think you'll have many training on the one handed rack it's much easier to keep one in the chamber.

It's still a useful skill to have. It's not inconceivable to have an injured arm or hand. Worst case scenario, as unlikely as it is, could be an injured hand and a failure to fire. Better to work out ahead of time how to clear that malfunction one-handed. I even practice one-handed reloads with my snubby revolvers. It's not part of my regular practice routine, but I do practice it from time to time.

 

[delcrossv]

Get a double action revolver - problem solved.

Or a semi with a decocker.

 

[bigben55]

Ive trained and trained to the point where its muscle memory to pull my G43x from my IWB where as I'm presenting the gun forward with my right hand, I rack it with my left hand before the gun is in firing position, and fire 2 rounds. Ive had people time me, im less than 1/2 slower unracked vs racked.

Now yes, i usually/almost always carry with a round in the chamber, and yes i know that 1/2 a second can mean life or death, and yes I understand that if I had to draw and fire one handed I'm screwed, but this little drill is a good one. There are times where I dont want a round chambered. Bowhunting(climbing trees), backpacking in non bear country, among others.

 

[Sistema1927]

A decent holster, a decent holster, a decent holster.

Many people don't carry in Condition One because they are afraid of an ND. A decent holster is the solution. I have carried both a Kahr PM9 and now a Sig P365 in Condition One pretty much every day for more than 15 years, but always in a decent holster.

 

[epj]

Get a double action revolver - problem solved.

This solves a lot of problems. Fewer rounds, maybe more powerful ammo, maybe not. No fail to feed, no fail to eject, no magazine not fully seated, no forget the safety. Second strike capability. Probably many I haven't thought of.
Further, I would suggest a 3-4" K frame revolver. The little J frames are not made for new or untrained shooters. The new folks are unlikely to put in the amount of practice it takes to become proficient with the little guns.

 

[S&W629]

where is that icon..for beating a dead horse????

 

[Dougaz]

This sounds like an argument in favor of revolvers.

A cop buddy once said: "I get it, auto's are the new prom queen but revolvers don't jamb and if I'm in a gun fight and need more than 6 rounds, an auto won't make much of a difference"

I can't carry an auto as my RA is too advanced to rack any slide.

My vote is for revolvers .....

Doug

 

[Rustyt1953]

where is that icon..for beating a dead horse????

 

[smoothshooter]

Some very skilled individuals trained by the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) carry handguns with an empty chamber.

The problem for everyone else carrying that way is that they, almost by definition, don't have the skill necessary to effectively employ a gun carried with an empty chamber for self defense.

The Israelis adopted the policy of the empty chamber carry decades ago because of the motley collection of handguns that they had in their military inventory. It was difficult to get good guns in the quantities and quality they wanted, so they had to take what they could smuggle in or capture. The lack of standardization created all kinds of training and safety issues. By requiring empty chamber carry, the Army ( and possibly the police forces ) neatly sidestepped several issues, including reducing the number of cases of accidental discharge, and simplified the loading and unloading process when arms were issued to troops for duty from arms rooms, and also when they were turned back in.
I am not aware that the Israelis or any other organization truly believes empty chamber carry for handguns is a tactically superior technique. But I suppose under some circumstances, for military use, it might do more good than harm.

 

[Darkenfast]

At the period when I received my training on the 1911, "empty chamber" was presumed to be the routine condition in the holster (we also assumed that one would chamber a round if use was anticipated). We learned to one-hand rack the pistols on our belts, if necessary. It was quite fast, and like racking with the off hand, it didn't add a whole lot of time to a draw and presentation from a flap holster.

Is carrying a round in the chamber a better idea? Probably.

Can you get by if, for some reason, carrying empty chamber is either mandated or a choice you have made? Probably.

Is "Do it my way or don't carry a pistol at all!" a helpful suggestion? Probably not.

I file this discussion (which comes up regularly), in the same wastebasket as "caliber wars".

 

[StrawHat]

I have been trying to find this compensator but so far no luck.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HXZcjZLxsMs[/ame]

Kevin

 

[Sistema1927]

Anyone who says that revolvers can't malfunction hasn't shot one much.

I love my revolvers, but I don't venerate them. While malfunctions are rare with revolvers, when they happen they tend to make them totally unusable. Most malfunctions with semi-autos can be easily resolved with the proper malfunction drill. Hang up a case rim under the ejector star on your revolver and you are down for the count.

 

[Sistema1927]

At the period when I received my training on the 1911, "empty chamber" was presumed to be the routine condition in the holster (we also assumed that one would chamber a round if use was anticipated). We learned to one-hand rack the pistols on our belts, if necessary. It was quite fast, and like racking with the off hand, it didn't add a whole lot of time to a draw and presentation from a flap holster.

Is carrying a round in the chamber a better idea? Probably.

Can you get by if, for some reason, carrying empty chamber is either mandated or a choice you have made? Probably.

Is "Do it my way or don't carry a pistol at all!" a helpful suggestion? Probably not.

I file this discussion (which comes up regularly), in the same wastebasket as "caliber wars".

There is a big difference between handgun usage in the military and by civilians. In a military context, the handgun is secondary to another primary weapon system. In my case, the 1911A1 was secondary to the 105mm main gun on the M60 tank (as well as M2 and coax MGs, and even the M2 "grease gun" was higher up on the food chain than the 1911).

For the ground pounder, any pistol issued would be secondary to their rifle or machine gun.

For the civilian concealed carrier, the handgun is primary, and needs to come into service, often at very short notice. If your off hand is injured, or otherwise in use fending off blows or trying to keep you upright, then the ability to bring the handgun into action is severely compromised. Most attacks on civilians come with very little notice, the bad guys are typically looking for the element of surprise.

Carry your weapon any way you want, but for me it is going to be Condition One.

 

[RGNewell]

Get a double action revolver - problem solved.

Amen! Model 39-59-659 I have carried with round in chamber. In your hands can't be safer.

 

[tops]

I've read that is the reason that the Israelis carry with an empty chamber is because they had all kinds of guns and no way too train everybody on all the different guns.
In this country we have all kinds of guns and all kinds of people with little or no training. I think the reason it made sense for the Israelis too carry an empty chamber is the same reason the majority of the people in this country need too carry with an empty chamber.
I'm old enough too remember when one of the gun safety rules was never trust a mechanical safety. Larry

 

[Kid44]

True that

In some poll or report of the last couple years, it was noted that in a majority of defensive uses the gun was not on the person... it was in a drawer, in the safe, in the next room, etc. I remember thinking that whether a round was chambered was almost irrelevant in that scenario.

A gun is only as effective as it is close to you.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

I'm carrying my S&W SD9 right now with a round in the chamber in a CYA IWB holster. If you keep your booger hook off the bang switch there is no danger.

Now, can anyone tell me how to get 16 rounds in the SD9 magazines?

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