A gun to a knife fight

[Packard]

The TV show, Mythbusters, did a segment on bringing a knife to a gun fight.

They had a guy with a large knife run at and attack a guy with a gun.

The guy with a knife would start to run at the victim on a signal. On the same signal, the guy with a gun drew his weapon from some sort of tactical holster. He was carrying with an empty chamber, so he had to jack back the slide before he could shoot.

It was not until the knife wielding bad guy was 21 feet away that the victim was able to get off a shot.

Now most of us within these forums will not carry with an empty chamber, and I figure chambering the round took as long as drawing the weapon, so the magic distance is about 11 feet. Further than I would have imagined.

You can shorten that distance even more if you have the weapon out and by your side, but certainly even then 6 feet or more is the safe distance.

Have any others heard of any studies on this scenario?

 

[Erich]

Since the '80s. Google "Tueller Drill".

 

[johnsonl]

21 feet is the distance that we train for. Distance is your friend. Most of my shooters can't draw any closer than that.

 

[Packard]

If you have situational awareness and you've drawn your weapon, what distance would you use? The 21 foot rule refers to both the draw and fire. If you've taken the "draw" out of the equation the distance would be less. Yes?

 

[P&R Fan]

Dennis Tueller did this study, as mentioned, in the early '80s for law enforcement use. It has been well researched and used in court many times as the standard for how far away an attacker with an edged or impact weapon can be away from you and still attack you in about a second and a half.
Over 20 years ago I was trained in the use of the Asp baton. They mentioned this drill and demonstrated it. They used an LEO there in uniform with a semi-auto pistol in his duty holster. Then they needed an athletic volunteer with a rubber knife. That was me. They measured off 21 feet and told me to run at him and attempt to plunge said knife into his chest before he could draw and click on an empty chamber. They assured me it was indeed empty, but asked if I wanted to check for myself. Uh, yes I do. Ok, good to go.
I'm pretty quick, although not blazingly so. I had that rubber knife stuck in his chest as he was about half way through his draw. We were both in good shape and in our mid 20s. This opened my eyes. 21 feet is quite a distance away, but it can be closed quickly. Add advancing age of the "victim", a concealed weapon, darkness, items in their hand that need to be dropped, companions that need to be sheilded or pushed away, and just the "this can't be happening to me" syndrome, and reaction time goes way up.
I think the general public (read, jury pool) would think somebody that far away poses NO threat. The late Jeff Cooper had a good name for them: Sheeple.
Jim

 

[Packard]

Thanks for the replies. But my basic question remains unanswered.

If you know a person with extreme antagonism towards yourself, and one day he is brandishing either a striking weapon or an edged weapon, and you pull out your firearm and hold at your side, what is the safe distance?

If you aim the gun at the bad guy, what is the safe distance?

Both have to be less than 21 feet.

If you have your gun out and aimed at the bad guy and shoot him at 21 feet then I think maybe you've fired too soon. What will the jury think?

Also, I've always trained with three shot groups, and I'm a pretty good shot.

What are the ramifications if all three shots land in a nice tight group in the vital zone?

 

[REM 3200]

What are the ramifications if all three shots land in a nice tight group in the vital zone?

He will probably be dead right there.

 

[NYlakesider]

Thanks for the replies. But my basic question remains unanswered.

If you know a person with extreme antagonism towards yourself, and one day he is brandishing either a striking weapon or an edged weapon, and you pull out your firearm and hold at your side, what is the safe distance?

If you aim the gun at the bad guy, what is the safe distance?

Both have to be less than 21 feet.

If you have your gun out and aimed at the bad guy and shoot him at 21 feet then I think maybe you've fired too soon. What will the jury think?

Also, I've always trained with three shot groups, and I'm a pretty good shot.

What are the ramifications if all three shots land in a nice tight group in the vital zone?

One point you appear to be missing. A person running at you with a blade has a lot of force (Inertia) and even if you hit him/her with a couple rounds the odds are they might still crash into you. With knife in his hand you are now a Shish Kabob

For that reason if said situation happened to me I would hope to hit him as far away, as soon as the threat occurred with a pistol of at least .40 caliber and more preferably with one around .44 -.45

 

[CO_Kid]

Why attempt to limit yourself?

The accepted study is that a knife wielding attacker can be 21 feet away and kill you before you can draw and shoot.

If ever pressed in court over why I shot a knife armed attacker, that's the study i'm using. I'm not going to try to make things worse for me by surmising the distance needed if the gun is already out. All my training on the subject is centered around the 21 foot rule. That's the distance I'm sticking with.

 

[Packard]

Well, once the guy starts charging, shooting seems a responsible response.

But what if the guy is just waving around the knife and yelling, but meanwhile slowly advancing. He has not charged, and it is not clear that he will (or won't) charge, but he is moving well into the 21 foot range and my gun is out and aimed.

At what point am I in the danger zone. It has got to be considerably closer than 21 feet if the gun is out and aimed.

(The ramifications of 3 shots in the vital zone is that some prosecutor will say that one shot was defense, and the second and third shot were offense.)

Before anyone laughs, there was a case on Long Island a number of years ago where a volunteer fireman with a pistol license was attacked and knocked to the ground by some teenagers who were stomping him. He drew his weapon and fired. The prosecutor said that he was within his legal rights to shoot the first three (unarmed, except for the stomping) teens, but the remaining two he should not have shot because it was not an overwhelming force at that point. (And the kids were wearing sneakers and not boots.)

I don't know the outcome, but there was an indictment.

(Past events in NY may not be a guarantee of similar results in Texas. )

In any event there can be ramifications.

 

[BCDWYO]

There are always ramifications and you need to be prepared for that after the fact, but bottom line is that if an attacker is advancing on you with a DEADLY WEAPON, which a knife is, then you have no obligation to let him get close enough to make it "fair", nor should you. You don't have time to try to calculate where it will be okay or not. If your gun is aimed at him and you have ordered him to drop his knife, but he keeps advancing, then it is time to shoot WHILE YOU STILL CAN. As for number of shots, you shoot until the attacker is neutralized, whether that is one, three, or more.

 

[CO_Kid]

BCDWYO summed it up perfectly. Again, I am trained that a knife wielding person can close the gap and kill me in 21 feet. If someone is threatening me with a knife, and crazy/high/angry enough to ignore the muzzle of my 357 pointed at them, and keeps advancing. I'm positive I can articulate why they were a threat and why I shot them.

If you ever find yourself in a "fair" gunfight, your tactics suck. Always use everything you can in your favor. In this case, it's sticking with the 21 foot rule instead of trying to calculate distances on the fly. However, if you don't feel that your life is in danger, don't shoot. That's a choice only you can make. It's a line all of us have to draw. To mentally pick a spot where, if the threat makes it to that line in the sand, I'm going to drop them. I've worked with cops who were still talking with people long after I'd have pulled the trigger. I've been in a situation on duty where a guy was coming at me with a sword. I was in the act of pulling the trigger, the hammer on my Sig 229 was drawing back, when he dropped the sword. But I wasn't going to let him take another step. Had he not dropped it, the next instant was going to be a loud bang.

There will ALWAYS be ramifications in shooting someone. You WILL be investigated, your gun most likely taken as evidence until the conclusion of that investigation. Obviously we want the investigation to conclude with a finding of self defense and no charges. But we have to be prepared otherwise. It comes with carrying a gun.

There will also probably be a civil lawsuit, regardless of any criminal charges or lack thereof, by the family of the "great kid who was turning his life around".

 

[Lost Lake]

I read somewhere and have witnessed (on large animals) that even with a direct shot to the heart the person will still function until the oxygen supply to the brain drops below the level needed to function. Some say up to 45 seconds. For sure a human can go 15 seconds with no heartbeat.

I think there are two possible reasons someone STOPS after being shot:

1. You have severed a main nerve that controls a leg, torso, perhaps you injured the spine and they cannot physically control their body any longer.

2. You shock the person. They cannot believe they were shot, they want to stop so they don't get shot again, or they have a preconceived notion (TV anyone) that they cannot function because they are shot.

I can tell you when you shoot a deer or a bear or whatever, they don't watch TV and they don't fall down unless you have removed their body's ability to function. I think in the case of a crazed attacker or a drug fueled nut case, the same may be true.

Shoot and continue shooting until the threat is stopped.

 

[CO_Kid]

The Miami FBI shootout in 86 was a very good (bad) demonstration of that. The perp with the rifle was hit with a fatal shot at the opening of the hostilities, but still lived long enough to kill two agents and wound I think it was 5 more.

The very first deer I ever shot at age 12, I shot through the heart. Completely blew the heart into 4 pieces. That deer still ran almost 200 yards before dying.

 

[badge]

Caliber Press has an excellent video called " Edged Weapons ", and if you think 21 feet is a long way you will be very surprised. Make haste deliberately.

 

[oldafsp]

A study provided a number of years ago showed that a assailant can cover the distance of 15 feet in approximately 1.4 seconds or less.

You need to seriously think about this. Even with you weapon in your hand, you are at a definite disadvantage. Years of defensive training I thought had prepared me for any type of threat and counter to that threat.

Nope. The night I encountered a machete wielding drunk on a domestic call taught me a valuable lesson. I had literally less than one second to make a choice. As I approached the door of the apartment in question, the man bolted into the hallway.

The distance was about 10 feet in a narrow hallway. The man is refusing to
comply with orders to drop the weapon and is standing his ground.

My backup is 10-12 feet behind me with his weapon drawn.

The following thoughts went through my mind:

1. Sidearm. Too close, not enough time to draw,level and fire. Apartment directly behind the suspect.

2. Retreat. Best option, distance is your friend in this situation. Will he allow
me to retreat or will he charge???

No. He didn't wait. He attacked.

The only thing that saved me from the vicious sideways swing of that machete was that I dropped to one knee. Had he connected, I wouldn't be here to write this. He was unstable enough that when he swung, he lost his
balance and fell to the floor. Dropping the machete in the process.

We carried PR-24 batons back then. I was able to pin his arm with the baton and take control of him quickly.

In retrospect, I am glad for the way it turned out. I was truly prepared to be
taken to the ER or the morgue, looking like I had been put through a Veg-O-Matic. Thankfully, that didn't happen. My back up did not fire. He did not have a clean shot. I'm glad he didn't..it may not have stopped him.

Adrenaline was off the scale for a good couple of hours.

The point is, no matter how you train, how you calculate, or whatever. There
is always the unknown or unexpected. Things can go south in a BIG hurry.And usually do.

 

[ACP230]

If you don't move "off the line" while drawing a guy with a knife can be
all over you from a 21 foot start. We did this drill with "red (plastic) guns" and a "red" knife, at a class I attended
some years ago.

Some folks got off one or two shots but still might have been cut.
Making the attacker change directions to reach you helped some.
It has been a while, I'd like to do the exercise again.

 

[ric_in_or]

Couple of thoughts --
1 - just cause he is dead, doesn't mean his attack has stopped. Shooting the guy can't prevent the weapon from causing you harm.

2 - if you find yourself in this position, you are at the disadvantage, start moving, create distance.

3 - could you draw earlier? I saw an Ayoob vid where he demonstrates having a CC weapon under an arm - after drawing. It was still not visible, but if you had to use it, it would take much less time than a draw from concealment.

 

[Poodle Soup]

100 yards is to close for someone who wants to do you harm. If your gun is out and they are still advancing your life is probably in danger.

 

[photoman]

I suppose if some madman with a knife is running at me from 100 yards I might take some time to retreat. Anything inside 25 yards is going to require immediate action. I ain't as fast as I used to be.