A post-shooting seizure question

lrrifleman

lrrifleman

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Hello All!

In the next few weeks I plan on traveling to a distant match, and carrying en route where my permit is recognized. My intention is to consciously avoid known "hot" spots, but it seems that virtually any area can become a "hot" spot in the blink of an eye. In many respects, this question is more directed towards LEOs and attorneys that have been involved in (either the arrest, investigation, or defense phases of) a self-defense shooting.

Scenario: a person is traveling to a specific destination (in this case a match) and is carrying their EDC, and transporting an additional (target) arm. The individual is ultimately forced to use their EDC to defend themselves. When they are either detained or arrested/released on bail, I realize that the arm that is used for defense will be retained as evidence, but will the additional arm intended for use in a match also be held as evidence or would it be released to the owner?

My follow-up questions are:
1). if any degree of social media can be trusted, how is a traveler that was forced to defend themselves and is released expected to continue to be able to defend themselves? This, in light of the claims that a contract has been placed on Kyle Rittenhouse once he is located in a correctional facility?
2) if a person is forced to defend themselves, while the incident is being investigated, are any arms that they may have at home also seized, or an order shared with the defender's home state seeking seizure of the other arms that they may possess?

Thanks in advance for your help!
 
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It's my understanding that only the weapon actually used. The reason of course is evidence and something that wasn't used will hold no pertinent evidence.
There could be aggravating circumstances that would require confiscation of all weapons but normally, I would think not.
Red Flag laws notwithstanding.
I am not a lawyer and this is just my understanding of it.
 
My answer here is off topic, so I am asking forgiveness beforehand.

I saw the title of this thread "A post-shooting seizure question" and actually thought you were asking about a person who had a seizure after they had been shooting (like at a range)... :confused:

My bad.
 
There are no guarantees that the weapon not used in the sd shooting will not be held as well as the gun used in the shooting.

Being in a state that's not your residence could influence local law enforcement to retain all weapons in your possession.

As far as your ability to defend yourself after the guns are held, don't imagine that this is an argument that will impress either the local LEOs or a judge.
 
I was a cop for 30 yrs and in the situation you outline only the gun used in the SD shooting would be held as evidence. The authorities would not have the legal authority to seize your other guns unless that jurisdiction was a gun free zone.
 
Jon651 said:
My answer here is off topic, so I am asking forgiveness beforehand.

I saw the title of this thread "A post-shooting seizure question" and actually thought you were asking about a person who had a seizure after they had been shooting (like at a range)... :confused:

My bad.
Click to expand...

THAT was my first thought as well.

Then I thought, nahhh, he's talking weapons seizure.

If you are involved in a self defense shooting and the police believe it was self defense from the get go then they'll likely leave your other possessions alone. They shouldn't even be the subject of a conversation. But if you get arrested first then, yes, they'll seize your vehicle and other possessions, inventory them, and if you get released/no billed/whatever the state calls it then it is standard practice for them to return everything if no other laws have been broken.

Your other questions are very different.

If you are arrested, detained, or otherwise become a public figure because of a riot then when you are released you need to be aware of your surroundings at all times and maybe forever because these terrorists are insane. If you're locked up then defending yourself is a wholly different proposition. Ask Jeffrey Epstein. However, in a normal, run of the mill, self defense situation, you won't make news and won't be famous and nobody will know who you are so you can proceed accordingly.

If you're in a foreign state then your home is outside the jurisdiction of the local constabulary and prosecutors. Should you be convicted of a felony then your home is subject to all kinds of governmental intrusion but you have to be a convicted felon first.

If your use of a firearm is away from your home it is unlikely that the gendarmerie will have any interest in your home. If you get into a gunfight at home it's hard to say what the investigators will be interested in.
 
a post-shooting seizure question

If the law in New Jersey still stands, many years ago, a friend of mine, in New Jersey, was arrested because his wife called the police and that she was threatened, by her husband. using a shotgun. The Police confiscated all of his guns until the court hearing and the case was dismissed since his wife made the complaint to remove him from the house. Her testimony and her neighbor fabricated the incident and was disclosed while in the court room. The judge adjudicated the husband and she was told to never set foot in his courtroom fabricating a weapons charge on an incent person. His weapons were returned to him by the Police department

Nick
 
hobby-gunsmith said:
If the law in New Jersey still stands, many years ago, a friend of mine, in New Jersey, was arrested because his wife called the police and that she was threatened, by her husband. using a shotgun. The Police confiscated all of his guns until the court hearing and the case was dismissed since his wife made the complaint to remove him from the house. Her testimony and her neighbor fabricated the incident and was disclosed while in the court room. The judge adjudicated the husband and she was told to never set foot in his courtroom fabricating a weapons charge on an incent person. His weapons were returned to him by the Police department

Nick[/QUOTE
The fact that she wasn't charged is just wrong
Click to expand...
 
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@ Nick,

Unfortunately, I am pretty well versed in NJ gun laws. My concern is centered primarily while I am traveling with a recognized non-resident permit. I want to ensure my ability to protect myself should I have had to use lethal force to protect myself. Sadly, I see today's "peaceful protesters" being too well organized and having a network in place to strike out at anyone that impedes their objectives.
 
2. A shoot is either righteous or it ain't. If it's righteous,
Click to expand...

That's completely correct. But while the police and prosecutors are making that determination your firearm could be in their custody and if it happens in your home it could be more than 1 firearm.
 
Some states may be different, ie if they have so called safekeeping laws which may allow them to hold your weapons for a short time if they deem you dangerous. This was often done during threats of family violence. It is done less often now it seems as the 2A rights, at least here, have successfully countered the practice. That being said only the one used should be taken as evidence until the courts are done, then it should be returned. They should have no reason or right to take the others unless you are arrested and there is no one to release them to at the time.
 
If you are involved in any kind of shooting your not going anywhere with any gun until they sort it out to some extent and if there are any doubts at all you may well have to make an appearance and bail before you can proceed. Depending on the who, what, when and where you may or may not proceed with another gun. The chances that your going to be on your way with in time to make your match are slim.

I would bet that right now, a shooting that may involve some of the chaos that is happening is going to get extra eye balling, if only for political reasons. Is he a vigilante? etc etc etc

Going to your match is going to be way down on your list at that point.
 
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I can guarantee if this happens in NY, all of your guns will be seized. You may have a glimmer of hope in rural NYS, not anywhere near NYC.
Probably in NJ, MD, MA and CT as well, amongst some others.
 
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Unless it's a crystal clear case of self defense or defense of others with numerous witnesses on the spot saying you saved everyone's life by shooting that mad man before he could kill others, the odds are really high you'll be arrested. If or morel likely when that happens, expect to spend *at least* a few hours in jail before you have an initial appearance and make bail, even on a shoot that is a legitimate use of lethal force justified as self defense or defense of others in the face of an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury.

Even in a clean shoot, if you are arrested, the odds are high you'll still have $5K to $10K in legal bills before it's done and over with, even if you are ultimately cleared of any wrongdoing.

What an arrest means in terms of the other weapons in the vehicle is that they will be discovered during an inventory search after your vehicle is towed. As part of that inventory search they will be impounded just like your car. Unlike your car, they may end up with an inventory number in many jurisdictions. (Hopefully you didn't have something collectible like a minty Colt Python in the car if that happens. If you are lucky the person doing the inventory might be considerate and put the inventory number under a grip rather than on a frame, cylinder or barrel in a classy electro-pencilled scrawl.

In the event you are charged, even if released on bail you won't be getting any of them back until the charges are dropped or you are adjudicated "not guilty". (You will never be considered "innocent" again.)

----

I also disagree with the commenters above who suggest other weapons in the car will not be seized. If there is any suspicion at all that the shoot is anything other than exactly what it appears, the presence of other guns in the vehicle might be viewed as "evidence" of your state of mind and criminal intent. Consider for a minute the average mass shooter who shows up with multiple weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammo. You know, just like you'd take to a typical three gun match.

In addition, most LEOs are not gun people and many of them won't be aware of three gun matches and/or would not understand why you might in interested in attending one or view that explanation or while you are a rolling armory with anything other than a healthy degree of suspicion.

In fact, having multiple guns and lots of ammo in the vehicle may be enough to convince the officer to just arrest you anyway and let the state's attorney make the call, even if the officer thinks it's a good shoot. I don't know many LEOs who want to end their career by NOT arresting a shooter who goes on to shoot more people after being questioned and released.

I've seen numerous officers over the years who got excited when an armed citizens had a spare magazine or heaven forbid TWO spare magazines and then start asking who the now "suspect" planned to shoot with all that ammo. (Never mind the excited officer also has two spare mags on his duty belt and doesn't "plan" to shoot anyone on any given day.)

----

In short, don't shoot anyone on your way to a match.
 
There are too many variables to answer this definitively.

Was the shoot justified?
Are you far from home?
Do you have anyone else that can come get your car/property?

These questions, and others I can't think of at the moment, all need to be answered. If you're far from home and are arrested and no one can come get your car for you, it will be impounded along with everything in it.
 
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