About LEO qualifying

[WuzzFuzz]

Really? Try passing the LEOSA course at 25 yards with 72 year old eyes!

I passed my LEOSA (again) with my S & W 65-3 three inch and I'm over 72. Carried several speed loaders for the shoot and re-load portion...Good thing I can see at a distance and not the close up fine print stuff.

Old LEO's and Old Revolvers seem to always stay in style.


WuzzFuzz

I might add though, the LEOSA course has been modified a bit from active LEO's, as the LEOSA course doesn't have night shoots, and we are allowed to shoot what we bring. What ever we qualify with, revolver or semi-auto, we are then allowed to carry either, in any caliber. The LEOSA course is geared more to defense rather than combat shooting. Another plus is the course is open to all former LEO's, FBI, PD's big and small, so the course is not particularly geared to the local PD standards.

For the small town PD's to get their original LEO certification, they have to attend the State Patrol certification course, and attend it twice a year.

As Muss said, each PD and or state has different standards.

 

[KSDeputy]

In KS the course of fire is set by the KLETC which is the academy, and possibly with input from the highway patrol, they have their own academy.

 

[Eric300]

Maybe in Michigan. Doesn't look like anything I've ever shot for qualification. As I said, every state and department is different . . .

Yes, that's what I meant to say. It pertains to MICHIGAN LE, not the rest of the country.

 

[ShivasIrons]

Here is some good reading on how they do it in the Commonwealth.

Not too easy. Not too hard. Just right in my experience.

Weapons | Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services

 

[SMSgt]

My son has to qualify a couple times a year with his federal agency. I don't know the particulars, but the problem he sees is as soon as a "time constraint" is placed on a drill, many rush their shooting and then shoot poorly. He says if you're given 15 seconds to complete a drill, use at least 12-14 and your scores will go up.

 

[blues7]

My son has to qualify a couple times a year with his federal agency. I don't know the particulars, but the problem he sees is as soon as a "time constraint" is placed on a drill, many rush their shooting and then shoot poorly. He says if you're given 15 seconds to complete a drill, use at least 12-14 and your scores will go up.

Frankly, as a retired fed, my observation was just the opposite. Too many agents took too much time (in order to raise the score) rather than trying to be "first".

I wasn't the best shot in my agency, either as an agent or on SRT, but I was damn near always first to break leather and put my rounds on target every time the command to fire was given.

I didn't care if I lost a few points. It's better than losing one's life if one has to draw their firearm in anger.

Opinions vary. This is mine.

 

[bub075]

The qual course in Ohio is, frankly, a joke. 25 rds total, longest shooting distance 50 FEET (!) and, at 50 feet, it is only 2 rds. No night shoots, no move and shoots, all static and just standing still. The State changed the course a few years ago to where Agencies HAD to shoot the standardized State course. Before that, each Agency could design and shoot a personalized course, as long as it was harder and/or had a higher round count than the standard course, which was 50 or 60 rds at the time. Not any more. The sad thing is, some STILL have trouble passing it.

Here is the State mandated target we have to use. The light gray area is the preferred area. Hits in the preferred area count as +1. Hits outside the preferred area but still on the silhouette count as +0. Hits outside the silhouette count as -1. Minimum points count to pass is 80% or 20 hits.

Here is the course, in all of it's pathetic glory. Unless otherwise specified, shooting is done with a 2 handed hold.

Stage 1 4 feet. On command, draw to a close quarters retention position and, strong hand only, fire 3 rds in 5 seconds into the preferred area. After firing, take a step backwards to create distance and cover the targets till told to holster.

Stage 2 9 feet. On command, take a step to either side, draw and fire 2 rds in the preferred area and 1 round in the head oval of the target in 6 seconds.

Stage 3 12 feet. On command, take a step to either side, draw and, strong hand only, fire 4 rounds into the preferred area in 8 seconds. After firing the 4 rounds, switch the gun to the weak hand and go to low ready. On command, step to the other side and fire 4 rounds into the preferred area, weak hand only, in 7 seconds.

Stage 4 prepare the gun with 2 rds in the magazine and 1 chambered. From 20 feet, on command, take a step to either side and fire 3 rds into the preferred area. When the slide locks open, reload while taking a step to the other side, then fire 3 additional rounds into the preferred area of the target in 12 seconds.

Stage 5 30 feet. On command, take a step to either side, draw and fire 3 rounds into the preferred area in 8 seconds.

Stage 6 50 feet. On command, take a step to either side, draw and fire 2 rds into the preferred area in 8 seconds.

That's it. No modifications allowed to the course. And the backup/off duty course is even worse. All of 8 rds fired!

Stage 1 6 feet. Start with the gun in the strong hand. On command, fire 2 rds into the preferred area in 3 seconds. After firing, take a step backwards to create distance.

Stage 2 12 feet. On command, take a step to either side, draw and, strong hand only, fire 2 rds into the preferred area in 5 seconds. Transfer the gun to the weak hand and assume a low ready position On command, take a step to the other side and fire 2 rds into the preferred area in 5 seconds.

Stage 3 21 feet. On command, take a step to either side and fire 2 rds into the preferred area with a 2 handed hold in 5 seconds.

After every stage, both duty and backup/off duty guns, you should assume "Position Sul" (which is the gun at your chest and pointed straight down) and scan 360 degrees. This assumes that you are checking for other targets. No points are deducted for either failing to take a side step when indicated or for checking 360 degrees after shooting.

Absolutely pathetic. No one was happy about it when the new courses came out, except the bean counters from the big cities. When I had to go to training for this new course, the instructors flatly told us that this course was invented at the request of the big city PDs because the bean counters were tired of having numerous guys out for several hours to qualify and that we were expected to conduct additional training throughout the year. We asked what those of us that worked at small Depts were supposed to do when our Admins refused to give us time or money for additional training and they shrugged their shoulders and said, literally, "Well, I guess you're ****ed then". Absolutely pathetic. IN the past, we always added extra stages, tightened up the times, added extra shots, things like that to get extra training. They loosened up the requirements a little a few years later in that you are allowed to shoot extra stages, but you are still not permitted to do anything to the established stages. Pathetic and really upsets me.

 

[ExRanger714]

Copy Blue7: I always wanted to be the first accurate shot off the line figuring if I can beat this bunch I can hold my own.

Even at close range and being instructed to shoot for center mass, it was astonishing how many of my practice rounds went high and hit the target in the head but I bore down and shot center mass for score.

 

[mckenney99]

bub075, I retired before the change was made in OH. My understanding is that the change was demanded in OH due to the ammo shortage & cost at the time. Unfortunately, now that ammo is plentiful and prices are back down, you probably will not see a return to firearms training rounds being fired. That money left over now is going towards some other project. Cultural sensitivity training, tactical vehicles, command vehicles, aircraft, whatever. Do more with less, unless its politically correct or tactical.
The only good thing is that being retired, the last 2 times I've LEOSA qualified, I only had to shoot the 8 rd course.

 

[ShivasIrons]

IMHO Another reason for a move to easier qualifications is to make it easier to qualify recruits. I imagine it is hard enough to find people these days and many do not have a firearms background. I am sure they do not want to drop any due to weapons quals. Over half of my class was prior military when I went through the Academy. That does not seem to be the case these days.

 

[Trooper224]

Really? Try passing the LEOSA course at 25 yards with 72 year old eyes!

I think eating Jello at your age might be a challenge.

 

[bub075]

bub075, I retired before the change was made in OH. My understanding is that the change was demanded in OH due to the ammo shortage & cost at the time. Unfortunately, now that ammo is plentiful and prices are back down, you probably will not see a return to firearms training rounds being fired. That money left over now is going towards some other project. Cultural sensitivity training, tactical vehicles, command vehicles, aircraft, whatever. Do more with less, unless its politically correct or tactical.
The only good thing is that being retired, the last 2 times I've LEOSA qualified, I only had to shoot the 8 rd course.

The official reason we were given was to come up with a standardized, quick, easy test. Qualifications are not supposed to be training, they are supposed to be a basic competency test and that I can agree with. However, budgets have been shrinking, for my Dept and a lot of small Deptartments anyway, for the last 15 or 16 years. When I started, way back when, we had qualifications in the fall (where we shot a qual course that the instructor had made much harder than the basic State course) and we had training in the spring, where we shot scenarios, things like transitions from shotgun to handgun, night shooting, shooting while moving, etc. The training course was one of the first things to go, No overtime for the full timers, no ammo costs, etc. We added some stages to the qual course to qualify as training. Now, with the state mandated course that you can't modify or anything, the admin only hears "qualifications" and they refuse to even consider additional training, even though several Court cases have established that you have to go above and beyond the bare minimum. It is to the point that I keep requesting money for ammo and training and keep doing it till they will put in writing that we aren't getting any more money. I then file my requests and the written denials with my gun stuff. That way, I can at least kinda cover my butt when we finally get an Officer Involved Shooting and get sued. It may be enough to keep me from getting personally sued, but the Dept will get sued out of existence.

Additionally, you have fewer and fewer "gun guys" going to the trouble to be cops. The vast majority of my Dept sees the handgun as something that is just part of your uniform and has to be worn on duty. They think that, because they can pass the horribly pathetic qual course, they are steely-eyed gunfighters that can take care of a riot with just their Glock. Even if you give them practice ammo, they flatly refuse to practice unless they get paid to go do so. Believe me, I've tried. I shoot more than anyone at the PD and, the past few years, I'm lucky to shoot 2000 rds/year out of my duty guns. I'm also the only there that regularly practices with backup/off duty guns. Even with all that, I know I'm not the best in the world. It's absolutely pathetic.

Sorry, guys. I keep trying but the state of things upsets me greatly and I have to vent. Thanks for listening.

 

[sigp220.45]

I used to love doing FBI quals, because by the time I was close to retirement they had evolved into this awful setup where everyone would have to reload at the same time. It was a Glock world by then, but I always carried an 8 shot Sig 220 so I would have to wear a bandoleer of mags like the Frito Banditio and reload in the middle of the course of fire.

I was an instructor but would have to qualify like everyone else. The other instructors were young guys who would get all bent when I was reloading and no one else was. One guy came up to me and said WHY ARE YOU RELOADING NOW? I answered BECAUSE I AM OUT OF BULLETS.

One guy got all verklempt because I didn't do the useless left-right scan before holstering. YOU HAVE TO SCAN, he says. I said, You know we are on the range, right?

Despite what you may hear, most cops can shoot. They just don't like to.

Regarding the current FBI qual posted above, it was originally a 50 round course with no 25 yard shooting. There was a mutiny in the training division and 10 rounds were added at the 25, hence the weird 60 round count. A guy I know was ambushed by a guy with an AK in an FBI parking lot, and killed him with his 228 at about 40 yards. He said, If I don't get on my front sight, this a^^^^^^ is going to kill me. There is still a place for marksmanship in law enforcement.

When I did quals for agents in Indian Country, I would sometimes put clay targets on the 100 yard berm and not let them leave until they broke one with their pistol. Sometimes you have to fight with what you have with you.

 

[Eric300]

 

[keith44spl]

When I did quals for agents in Indian Country, I would sometimes put clay targets on the 100 yard berm and not let them leave until they broke one with their pistol.

Sometimes you have to fight with what you have with you.

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Amen to that!!!


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[Muss Muggins]

I think eating Jello at your age might be a challenge.

Seems kinda mean . . .

 

[blues7]

Seems kinda mean . . .

He's been a bit cranky lately.

 

[fredj338]

I read a lot of threads about LOE's qualifying but never any about what they have to do to qualify. Is it a confidential thing ? I have asked a friend who's son is LEO what they have to do and he pleads that he has no idea. Can anyone comment ?

Not a secret at all. You can google many lea quals & get an idea. Most are pretty simple, after all, the agency wants their officers on the street. Some ar a bit tougher than others. Most, I o, not a good measure of an officers skill level.
Burbank pd used to run scenario based stages for quals, one of the best at th time, back in the 80s. The bigger question for me is how many times a year are they qualifying? Many agencies ate bi-annual, maybe 1/4s, not enough. Consider the avg leo never practices & only shoots their qual, you will never be very good shooting 1-4x a year.

 

[fredj338]

My son has to qualify a couple times a year with his federal agency. I don't know the particulars, but the problem he sees is as soon as a "time constraint" is placed on a drill, many rush their shooting and then shoot poorly. He says if you're given 15 seconds to complete a drill, use at least 12-14 and your scores will go up.

That is the entire point of timed shooting, to induce stress. Your Attacker isnt giving you all day, your quals or practice should be as challenging as possible. It might be location driven, but the avg leo is a poor shooter past contact distances, just fact. Why quals are pretty easy in most dept. ypu have to practice to actually be good with a pistol.
Check out the air marshal's qual for a realistic time/distance qual.

 

[Muss Muggins]

It might be location driven, but the avg leo is a poor shooter past contact distances, just fact. Why quals are pretty easy in most dept. ypu have to practice to actually be good with a pistol.
Check out the air marshal's qual for a realistic time/distance qual.

Most people don't shoot inside aircraft. What facts do you base your declarations upon?