About LEO qualifying

[The Big D]

With due respect to you son...

...that's quite unwise. Does he think he'll have 15 seconds in a real life situation? Every situation?

Be safe.

My son has to qualify a couple times a year with his federal agency. I don't know the particulars, but the problem he sees is as soon as a "time constraint" is placed on a drill, many rush their shooting and then shoot poorly. He says if you're given 15 seconds to complete a drill, use at least 12-14 and your scores will go up.

 

[Whitwabit]

You can google LEO involved shootings & number of shots fired & even distances. Yes I have had privy to several LEA qual scores thru friend of mine at various dept. Plus my lying eyes tell me every weekend what many of us know, the avg LEO is at best an average shooter.

The 3 times I have seen LEO's shooting at the range I go to more then half had holes spread over the whole target verses any kind of recognizable pattern in the center of the target .. The several that did shoot well were well versed on all the fundamentals of shooting .. While others the basic's escaped them .. I saw one man almost lose his pistol almost dropping it when he shot the first shot and the recoil twisted it in his hands .. Several tried to fire with out taking the safety off .. Which I consider a severe training mistake !!

I will be the first to admit many of the older LEO's did much better then the younger officers .. With the younger ones there was much more laughing and acting up with them to the point an older officer told a group of younger ones to as he put it (Tone it down and Cool IT !) saying that to them in a very forceful manner ..

The last time I saw a group of them come in on a Friday afternoon everyone else on the range packed up and left including myself as I was done shooting my new 686+ PC and I didn't want them standing behind me when I was shooting wondering what all the noise was .. It seems to draw a crowd when shooting magnums ..

 

[Rastoff]

...that's quite unwise. Does he think he'll have 15 seconds in a real life situation? Every situation?

Be safe.

I don't think the point is to take the full time. What he's getting at is to take the time necessary to make the shot without taking too long. All too often people miss simply because they rush. In a real life situation you might not have 15 seconds, but the shot doesn't need to be taken in .5 seconds either.

A slower hit is always better than a fast miss.

 

[PeterJ]

Want to thank you all for the very informative replys. I knew I could have googled for the info, but I know I learned a lot more from you than I ever could have anywhere else. Thanks !!

 

[fredj338]

The LEOSA qual for your perusal. Sorry, anyone thinking this is difficult really has no idea. It is adequate, best I can describe it.
H.R. 218 Qualification for Retired Law Enforcement Officers | Highlands Ranch Law Enforcement Training Facility

 

[Muss Muggins]

That is the LEOSA course for one agency. Every state and agency is different. It certainly looks nothing like my annual shoot . . .

The LEOSA qual for your perusal. Sorry, anyone thinking this is difficult really has no idea. It is adequate, best I can describe it.
H.R. 218 Qualification for Retired Law Enforcement Officers | Highlands Ranch Law Enforcement Training Facility

 

[fredj338]

The 3 times I have seen LEO's shooting at the range I go to more then half had holes spread over the whole target verses any kind of recognizable pattern in the center of the target .. The several that did shoot well were well versed on all the fundamentals of shooting .. While others the basic's escaped them .. I saw one man almost lose his pistol almost dropping it when he shot the first shot and the recoil twisted it in his hands .. Several tried to fire with out taking the safety off .. Which I consider a severe training mistake !!

I will be the first to admit many of the older LEO's did much better then the younger officers .. With the younger ones there was much more laughing and acting up with them to the point an older officer told a group of younger ones to as he put it (Tone it down and Cool IT !) saying that to them in a very forceful manner ..

The last time I saw a group of them come in on a Friday afternoon everyone else on the range packed up and left including myself as I was done shooting my new 686+ PC and I didn't want them standing behind me when I was shooting wondering what all the noise was .. It seems to draw a crowd when shooting magnums ..

At our 3x monthly IDPA matches we get a smattering of regular LEO & a few new guys/gals. I have rarely seen any that can best our mid level shooters, much less the advanced guys. Then again I do not expect it. I shoot 15-200rds every weekend. The avg LEO shoots that in an entire year, maybe. The regulars LEO that show up understand the need for meaningful practice & that is why they are there. We have had many new LEO come to shoot & never come back because they were embarrassed by their performance in front of civis with guys/gals shooting common carry guns.
To solve much of this embarrassment, two of the regular LEO & I put on a match once a year just for LEO. It gets a good turn out because they mostly shoot about the same & don't feel as bad being beaten up by the occasional high level LEO vs a civi. Yes facts not opinion, see it every week.

 

[fredj338]

That is the LEOSA course for one agency. Every state and agency is different. It certainly looks nothing like my annual shoot . . .

Yes it is an example, but that several others are not much better. Post yours, I would like to see some challenge in any LEO qual. I find the AM the most challenging for time vs distance. The FBI is ok, but any midlevel IDPA shooter can ace that one.
http://www.fopevergreenlodge.org/files/LEOSA Registration (6).pdf
L.E.O.S.A. Proficiency Qualification | Safety Measures
http://www.range82.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/CourseOfFire.pdf

 

[Muss Muggins]

IDPA had nothing to do with LEO combat shooting. I've never shot IDPA, because I've looked at the courses of fire and don't see the point. . .

At our 3x monthly IDPA matches we get a smattering of regular LEO & a few new guys/gals. I have rarely seen any that can best our mid level shooters, much less the advanced guys. Then again I do not expect it. I shoot 15-200rds every weekend. The avg LEO shoots that in an entire year, maybe. The regulars LEO that show up understand the need for meaningful practice & that is why they are there. We have had many new LEO come to shoot & never come back because they were embarrassed by their performance in front of civis with guys/gals shooting common carry guns.
To solve much of this embarrassment, two of the regular LEO & I put on a match once a year just for LEO. It gets a good turn out because they mostly shoot about the same & don't feel as bad being beaten up by the occasional high level LEO vs a civi. Yes facts not opinion, see it every week.

 

[fredj338]

IDPA had nothing to do with LEO combat shooting. I've never shot IDPA, because I've looked at the courses of fire and don't see the point. . .

Just as relevant as the LEOSA qual, or any LEA qual??? A series of drills under the clock???? May I suggest you have never shot IDPA because of the embarrassment factor?? Maybe, just a little??
IDPA is NOT training, no one in their right mind would say that, I have never said that. What it is, is dynamic practice. Forget the timer if you like, shoot it as tactically as you like. It is practice. Many high level LEO & spec ops guys embrace such tactical scenario shooting for PRACTICE. The timer adds a small amount of stress, as does any timed qual. IT's about learning how to run out gun under some sort of stress. Yep, not for everyone, not for anyone that can't take a little humble pie now & then.

 

[Muss Muggins]

May I suggest you have never shot IDPA because of the embarrassment factor?? Maybe, just a little??

Yup. That's it. Don't want to embarrass the mall cop participants . . .

 

[sigp220.45]

LEOSA quals (at least Colorado's) are generally pretty easy, out of deference to us old coots.

Regular LE quals are still pretty challenging.

I know folks love to parrot that COPS CAN'T SHOOT line, but I just haven't found it to be true. Only someone who has never been near an actual gunfight would equate hits and misses in a real-life shooting with range marksmanship.

I shoot a couple of times a week at an indoor range where the max distance is 20 yards. I am almost always the only one plugging away with a handgun at that range. Everyone else is blazing away at near contact distance and making a mess of it. Based on that, the cops I know are Buffalo Bill, Annie Oakley, and Jerry Miculek rolled into one!

 

[Muss Muggins]

Only someone who has never been near an actual gunfight would equate hits and misses in a real-life shooting with range marksmanship.

This is really where we're at . . .

 

[ispcapt]

R
I know folks love to parrot that COPS CAN'T SHOOT line, but I just haven't found it to be true. Only someone who has never been near an actual gunfight would equate hits and misses in a real-life shooting with range marksmanship.

Exactly. They just show how little (which is nothing) they know about the dynamics involved in an actually shooting situation. They don't realize that with most police shootings the officer is already under fire before he ever clears leather and all the LEO's rounds are return fire while taking fire. But the 'hero range cowboys' think they know. They dream about what it's really like, do their internet google searches, and read the grocery store gun rags and they think they're some kind of expert on the dynamics of a shooting situation. A paper target never fired first or returned fire. They rattle off their rounds rapid fire at near contact distance and leave the place to tell their buddies (and the internet) they're gunfighters and better shots "than most cops". 800,000 cops in the US and they know a handful who 1) most have never been in a gunfight and 2) if they have they sure aren't going to talk about it to some range cowboy and self promoted expert. As soon as a person starts spouting "most cops" then they've just proven they know absolutely nothing about the topic and just trying to impress others with their overblown self worth.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Exactly. They just show how little (which is nothing) they know about the dynamics involved in an actually shooting situation. They don't realize that with most police shootings the officer is already under fire before he ever clears leather and all the LEO's rounds are return fire while taking fire. But the 'hero range cowboys' think they know.

Yup. But they'll never understand. It's like herding cats . . .

 

[keith44spl]

Only someone who has never been near an actual gunfight would equate hits and misses in a real-life shooting with range marksmanship.

And they can't understand why afterwords, ya can't even spit.


.

 

[SMSgt]

...that's quite unwise. Does he think he'll have 15 seconds in a real life situation? Every situation?

Be safe.

He doesn't set the time limits--the course director does. He has no control nor input on what the course consists of. Folks in higher pay grades do that. The "15" seconds I used was arbitrarily chosen by me. There are different times for different courses.

He uses what they give him. Better to get ten on target in 15 seconds than 1 in 10 seconds with the rest going who knows where. He's never had to requalify in either his federal job nor his military qualifications (long-range shooter, etc.). He can put 10 in the X in the ten seconds if he chose to do so. I've seen him shoot. He takes a lot of pride in his shooting--but he doesn't play Wild Bill Hickok.

So which is wiser, rushing and missing, or slower and more accurate. You make that call.

The point that some seem to miss (reading too fast?) is slow hits count more than fast misses. LE qualification is not a "fastest shooter wins" qualification.

 

[blues7]

He uses what they give him. Better to get ten on target in 15 seconds than 1 in 10 seconds with the rest going who knows where. He's never had to requalify in either his federal job nor his military qualifications (long-range shooter, etc.). He can put 10 in the X in the ten seconds if he chose to do so. I've seen him shoot. He takes a lot of pride in his shooting--but he doesn't play Wild Bill Hickok.

So which is wiser, rushing and missing, or slower and more accurate. You make that call.

The point that some seem to miss (reading too fast?) is slow hits count more than fast misses. LE qualification is not a "fastest shooter wins" qualification.

With respect, I think you are the one missing the point here.

Going back some years when our quals were 60 rounds from 3 yards to 25 yards, a perfect score was 300, "distinguished expert". A 285 was "expert".

My point is that I'd rather shave seconds off the time it takes to put rounds on target, perform reloads, shoot weak hand etc. This is still accomplished with high accuracy, but perhaps sacrificing a perfect score.

On the street we didn't have the luxury of taking 10 or 15 seconds to break leather, acquire a sight picture, control breathing and accomplish the perfect trigger pull.

Even on FATS machine training, in any given scenario you had to make a quick decision regarding shoot / no shoot and if appropriate get your shot off in the time allotted by the scene.

It's not an either / or situation. It's not like you either get perfect shots or you're spraying and praying with rounds off the target. (Unless one really has no gun handling skills.)

But, if you've made up your mind that if they give you 15 seconds you should take 12 to 14 seconds, and that that is the best technique to enhance survival on the job, God bless.

But it's not a matter of reading comprehension that's the basis of my disagreement. It's a matter of 20 plus years working law enforcement including undercover, SRT and running investigations in NYC and South FL.

That's all I got.

 

[LPD256]

You can google LEO involved shootings & number of shots fired & even distances. Yes I have had privy to several LEA qual scores thru friend of mine at various dept. Plus my lying eyes tell me every weekend what many of us know, the avg LEO is at best an average shooter.

The two way range is the ultimate test of training and levels the playing field. It's impossible to add that level of stress into a training regimen. Lots of folks that shoot at ranges regularly think they are Dirty Harry and don't understand that there is a major difference in shooting paper, which doesn't shoot back, versus a gunfight.

 

[WuzzFuzz]

And they can't understand why afterwords, ya can't even spit.

Keith, I could spit, but my hand was shaking like I had Parkinson's. Bother officer was wounded, I wasn't , (that time)

Yes, I've been shot, and it wasn't during a stay in the military, or at some shooting range by some, so called who couldn't shoot straight at paper targets.

My answer to the nay say'rs, take a Ride a Long some hot Saturday night in the big city, in the less than affluent part of the city and lets see if you could whip out your gun like Quick Draw McGraw, shoot like Wild Bill Hickock.. and then brag about high score you may have just shot.



The current LEO's and other has beens like me know what the real world of bad guys and shootings really is.


WuzzFuzz



Who me???? Getting my blood pressure up over this topic???? Only from reading from know nothing's.