About the "Transitionals"

[Vettepartz]

I just got my Summer 2023 SWCA Journal, and noticed a well-written article About transitional .357 magnums. I have a 38/44 Outdoorsman that I have been told is a "transitional" (Serial S70421) and Dr Roy Jinks says it was shipped in January, 1947. I posted about 3 years ago (see link below) and was told that this is considered a transitional, even though it is not a .357 magnum. The barrel and cylinder numbers match the frame, and the barrel is marked 38 special and the cylinder holes will not fully accept a 357 magnum cartridge. So, what is a transitional; a 38 spcl or 357 mag? Hard to believe 2 different caliber guns would have the same designation.

On another note, I see mention of a transitional database. I am a SWCA member and also a member of the Historical Foundation. Is there some way I can call up this data base?

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/611698-question-38-44-od-stocks.html

 

[two-bit cowboy]

I can't answer your model questions, but you can access the database.

Go to Smith & Wesson Collectors Association – The Collectors Resource for Historic Smith & Wesson Firearms

If you're not already signed up for an account follow the prompt and contact Mike Helms to enroll.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Well, we'll probably get into an argument on this topic as some folks are hostile to the term "transitional." It's sorta like the Model 1902 vs. 1905 disagreement. As I understand the term, it refers to any model made before and after WWII (or select another interval) that has most of the same features after the interval but loses them to engineering changes over a short period of time. IOW, the gun "transitions" into its new, more modern, configuration.

 

[Kansasgunner]

My understanding is that “Transitional” is a term used by many to describe any Smith and Wesson built after WW II that was built using the prewar long action. So it applies to many models built on both the K and the N frames.

 

[PeteC]

@Vettepartz: I have one with a very close s/n, 69...

There is a section on "Transitional" N-Frames in the SCSW, 4th edition, as it applies to the 38/44. Page 180. I don't want to comment on its accuracy, I just got corrected when I posted another quote from the same book, so I won't do that in your thread, but there is a pretty good definition there.

Aaanyway... Does your gun look like the one below, s/n 696xx? If you could compare it to yours, meaning the hammer, trigger, barrel rib, sideplate, grooved tangs, and grips, I would be very grateful. IThey should look the same.

I bought mine from a dealer who sells a lot of S&W revolvers including early ones, and he called it Early Postwar Outdoorsman w. trigger safety and original magna grips. I exchanges some emails with them. Apparently not everyone uses the same terminology, or agrees on what it should be.


edit: Just to be clear, DBS are NOT my initials!

 

[lestert357]

The term “Transitional” does not stand alone when describing a model; it is only part of the description of the model/caliber being discussed.

The gun in the Journal article you referred to is a “Post-War .357 Magnum Transitional” or “Post-War Transitional .357 Magnum”. See page 155 in the SCS&W.

Your OD is a “Post-War .38/44 Outdoorsman Transitional”, or “Post-War Transitional .38/44 Outdoorsman”. See page 183 in the SCS&W.

 

[Doc44]

John...Your revolver is a transitional per the correct definition posted by Tim above. Mike Helms can provide you with a password for the S&WCA website that will allow you to access the various databases. His email address is in the roster.

Bill

 

[DWalt]

I am of the camp who would eliminate use of the term completely as it is superfluous and serves no good purpose. Others may use it if they please, but I will not.

 

[Truckman]

I have a 38/44 Outdoorsman that I have been told is a "transitional" (Serial S70421) and Dr Roy Jinks says it was shipped in January, 1947.

OOOF!!...One of my favorite guns, and my birth month and year...Pardon me while I salivate...

I'm in the camp that thinks "transitional" has a legitimate place in a S&W discussion......Ben

 

[lestert357]

On another note, I see mention of a transitional database. I am a SWCA member and also a member of the Historical Foundation. Is there some way I can call up this data base?

Vette, there is not a “transitional” database, rather there is a “Postwar Transitional & Early Short Action .357 Magnums (1946 – 1949)” database that only lists .357 Magnums.

Thus far no one has stepped up to the plate to curate a database for .38/44 Outdoorsmans of any vintage.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

I thought the Transition Guns being discussed here were Long Action Revolvers made after WWII.
Easy to ID cause they have S Serial Numbers under S75000.
Regret to report I don’t have one!
My lowest S Gun is S79810.
Just happens to be a Outdoorsman.
Highest you ask?
S269xxx, model 27-2.

 

[PeteC]

I thought the Transition Guns being discussed here were Long Action Revolvers made after WWII.
Easy to ID cause they have S Serial Numbers under S75000.
...

Well that made it easy...

 

[handejector]

My understanding is that “Transitional” is a term used by many to describe any Smith and Wesson built after WW II that was built using the prewar long action. So it applies to many models built on both the K and the N frames.

Exactly. The Long Action is THE determining factor. Grips, ejector knobs, and other items are NOT the determining factors.
I am not an authority on small frame guns, so I leave those to others.
Pre-War N and K frame guns made in Transition (Long Action) variants:
K-
38 M&P
38 M&P Tar (Mexican Mod)
32 M&P

N-
38/44 HD
38/44 OD
357 Mag - RARE!
44-3rd Mil (Mod 1926)
44-3rd Tar (Mod 1926) - Super RARE!
1917

 

[PeteC]

I thought the Transition Guns being discussed here were Long Action Revolvers made after WWII.
Easy to ID cause they have S Serial Numbers under S75000.
...

I was really hoping people with actual experience would comment here, but it appears that not all HD guns with serial numbers below S75000 had the older style action and hammer.

In the SCSW section on the .38/44 transitional, it also states "A short throw hammer was introduced in 1948 at approximately s/n S72300." It does NOT say whether ALL .38/44 frames after that point had the short throw hammer, or only some. Was this an option at the time, that customers could order, or was it a running change?

I know that quoting the SCSW has gotten me in trouble twice now, but it would be helpful to have answers based on actual examples, and not one sentence notes in a book that may or may not be accurate.

 

[handejector]

I was really hoping people with actual experience would comment here, but it appears that not all HD guns with serial numbers below S75000 had the older style action and hammer.

357s below S75000 are believed to all be Long Actions. However, I have not heard of any above S73000.
The short action 357s begin in the mid S75000s. There are other models below S75000 with short actions.

 

[PeteC]

357s below S75000 are believed to all be Long Actions. However, I have not heard of any above S73000.
The short action 357s begin in the mid S75000s. There are other models below S75000 with short actions.

What about the .38/44HD and OD guns, have you seen them with short-action hammers between S72300 and S75000?

edit: Meaning, does "Other Models" include the HD and OD, or does it mean something else like K-Frames?

I am aware that just because S&W "introduced" something in a given year, it does not mean that you can actually find guns in that configuration from that point on. I just don't know if this is one of those cases, or even if that statement in the SCSW is correct.

 

[handejector]

This ain't complicated-
Pre-War N frame production ends in the mid 62000s, probably the 62,400s to be more exact.
Post-War production begins where they left off. S62507, a 38 HD, is the lowest I recall seeing offhand.
So, ALL current N frame models in 1946 would be numbered, as usual, in the same series beginning in the S62400s or S62500s.
38 HDs were probably the first Post-War N frames shipped since we see some shipped in 1946.
Again, all these models are numbered in that series, most likely between S62400s to S75000s-
38/44 HD
38/44 OD
357 Mag - RARE!
44-3rd Mil (Mod 1926)
44-3rd Tar (Mod 1926) - Super RARE!

Most are 38 HDs, 38 ODs, and 44-3rd Mils.

This is one time I believe S&W would make a real effort to move the old stock out BEFORE the new short actions started, possibly even before announcing the new short actions.
I say that because it could have led to dissatisfied customers BIG TIME to mingle the models.
Picture this-
You are at a match shooting your Pre-War 38 OD. Your buddy shows up with a new short action 38 OD and beats you. You just KNOW you could do better with the quicker lock time of that short action and promptly order one the next day. Imagine how perturbed you would be if you received a Transition 38 OD with the long action!
So, I bet they tried to move the Transition guns out before they started shipping short action guns.
That is NOT to say that numbers don't overlap. Numbers and the order of production often don't coincide.

 

[lestert357]

The last long action .357 Magnum Transitional shipment was from the Stockbridge Street factory on 3/8/49 (S71850, 3-1/2”, blue, shipped to the Mississippi Highway Patrol, Jackson, MS.)

The highest known long action .357 Magnum Transitional serial number currently documented in the database is 72019. It was one of the twenty-five (25) 3-1/2” Magnums shipped on 12/15/48 to Blish, Mize & Silliman Co., Atchison, KS, for the Kansas Hwy Patrol.

The first short action .357 Magnums were shipped from the Roosevelt Avenue factory on 11/18/49 (S75514, S75515, S75516, S75517, S75519, & S75520, all 3-1/2”, blue, shipped to Evaluators LTD, Quantico, VA, for various police departments.)

The above information is based on the S&WHF invoice review that Dr. Bill Cross accomplished in July 2022 and/or known extant revolvers recorded in the S&WCA database.

 

[PeteC]

S720xx to S755xx is a pretty significant gap. Nevertheless, the serial number pattern seems to be consistent. According to the SCSW, the short action hammer was introduced in the HD at about s/n S72300. That is not much past the last known .357 Magnum with the long action. It looks like the last ~3000 serial numbers out of the ~13,000 made from 1946 to the end of 1949 may have had the short action.

Did ALL N-Frames made from 1946 to 1949 have a longer grip frame, and the longer magna grips? I am wondering if that change coincided with the short action.

 

[Fullmetaljacket]

Here's a sample, no. 73,313. I've not lettered it but speculate it was shipped 1949. Interesting you bring up the "long" magna stocks. I purchased a pair of elk stags from a forum member intending to install on this HD but they were a little short (1/16" +/-) for the frame. They fit perfectly on a 1954 Highway Patrolman so your suggestion that the frame dimension changed to coincide with the change to short action makes sense.