Acceptable grouping size for Self Defense
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Shooting targets is one thing, shooting under pressure is another.
I try to get 2 inch groups at 25 feet on the range. Taking my time and getting one shot off, I can place shots in a three inch circle at 40 feet. Under duress, I might not could hit a 12 inch target at that range.
Officers train to shoot and most shootings are at distances less than 20 feet. Why then are so many shootings ending in total misses on both sides?
It has always been my thoughts that regular and routine practice is good for preparing one to shoot but certainly does not assure the accuracy needed when the real thing goes down.
I am of the fervent belief that "grouping size" is, at best, of very minimal importance. Shots on target...anywhere on target...are more important.
Of course, a shot(s) to center mass/head to stop a threat is best; however, any "hit" will have some effect...if only to give the person something to think about.
I was involved, peripherally, in an investigation of the death of a LEO. In that instance (a car stop), the LEO was assaulted by two shooters. He elected to try to run for cover instead of shooting back. In fact, he never unholstered his pistol. He had no chance of survival given his decision. My point is that any shot/hit has some effect; no shot, no effect.
Be safe.
Of course, a shot(s) to center mass/head to stop a threat is best; however, any "hit" will have some effect...if only to give the person something to think about.
I was involved, peripherally, in an investigation of the death of a LEO. In that instance (a car stop), the LEO was assaulted by two shooters. He elected to try to run for cover instead of shooting back. In fact, he never unholstered his pistol. He had no chance of survival given his decision. My point is that any shot/hit has some effect; no shot, no effect.
Be safe.
Depends on the gun and if you are measuring your groups in slow fire or under stress. As others have said, only hits count under stress.
If you are measuring your groups when you are slow firing, you need to keep practicing until your groups are as small as they can get. Because in a self defense shooting they are just going to get much worse.
With a service sized quality gun, at 15 feet slow fire, your shots should be one ragged hole.
If you are measuring your groups when you are slow firing, you need to keep practicing until your groups are as small as they can get. Because in a self defense shooting they are just going to get much worse.
With a service sized quality gun, at 15 feet slow fire, your shots should be one ragged hole.
cshoff
Member
People don't realize how precise your hits actually need to be if you want the best chances of an immediately neutralized threat. Simply "hitting" the threat won't necessarily cut it.
Everything that counts is inside this red box:
When the attacker is quartering away, quartering towards, or at any angle other than straight on, determining proper shot placement becomes even more of a challenge. Some study into human anatomy is a good idea for anyone who wants to be prepared to use a gun to defend him/herself.
Everything that counts is inside this red box:
When the attacker is quartering away, quartering towards, or at any angle other than straight on, determining proper shot placement becomes even more of a challenge. Some study into human anatomy is a good idea for anyone who wants to be prepared to use a gun to defend him/herself.
Steve in Vermont
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I practice with a 36 and 640-1 at ranges of 3 to 7 yards. If I can put every shot into the center area of a standard sheet of copy paper (8X11) it's good enough for me. And most of my shooting is "point and shoot" since I'm concerned that in a stressful situation it's unlikely I'll take the time to "aim" and concentrate on trigger squeeze. I try to simulate real life scenarios as much as possible.
jdesro1911
Member
I don't have any statistics, but I would imagine that the distances would be pretty much the same regardless of whether it is Law Enforcement or citizen. I'd imagine most self-defense shootings happen at conversation distance - well within 7 yards.
As for "acceptable" group size, for me personally I never try to settle for just "good enough". I'm always trying to improve. If you can land all your shots into a 4" circle at 15 feet, next time at the range try to get all your shots into a 3" circle, then a 2" circle. There is always room for improvement, because even though most situations take place at close distance, you never really know what you might be up against.
As another poster pointed out, if you add stress, darkness, movement and even possibly injury, your shooting skills will deteriorate quickly. Add any of the above factors, and now your 4" group at 15 feet turns into a 24" group - and misses when you can least afford to miss.
This. Realizing after much practice that it was too difficult to shoot accurate groups with my J and mini-380 carry guns under the best of range circumstances, I went up a class to the compact 9mm.
As a LEO I was was involved in two deadly force encounters, both times using my issued .38 (+P). These shootings happened w/i the standard 7 - 10 yard distances so I guess there is some truth in the research.
In retirement I practice with my J frame shooting at a standard paper plate at 3, 5, 7, & 10 yards. If I keep all my shots on the plate, rapid fire, I'm happy that I can defend myself. I've read that others disagree w/this but again my opinion is based on my experiences.
As an aside I sometimes shoot at a standard man sized paper target at the same distances, shooting two in the body and one in the head.
The bottom line is practice with what you carry and hope you never have to use your skills.
In retirement I practice with my J frame shooting at a standard paper plate at 3, 5, 7, & 10 yards. If I keep all my shots on the plate, rapid fire, I'm happy that I can defend myself. I've read that others disagree w/this but again my opinion is based on my experiences.
As an aside I sometimes shoot at a standard man sized paper target at the same distances, shooting two in the body and one in the head.
The bottom line is practice with what you carry and hope you never have to use your skills.
There it is!!
Practice to hit that paper plate first time, every time, as fast as you can, whether standing, seated. ready or not, at whatever distance.
Working on target group size and slowing your shot to get that "perfect" sight picture is irrelevant to self-defense shooting. When the NRA put together the defense courses, they got advice from the seasoned experts and decided the "bullseye" should be no smaller than a paper plate, and that's what we teach.
First good hit usually wins, and there are no second-place trophies in a gunfight.
cshoff
Member
We often use a blank 8 1/2" X 11" sheet of paper as the "target" for our students in our NRA Personal Protection courses. Makes an ideal sized target area for a student to develop good defensive accuracy.
Smith357
US Veteran
I don't remember when or where I heard the paper plate thing but it was long ago. The paper plate is a great tool for getting combat/hunting accuracy with a handgun at close range and an unrested rifle at 100 yards.
I like a metal plate at 100 yards. Instant feedback.
We had this discussion a while back. A pie plate may be good to start with when new to guns, but not as a constant tool.
Your first one or two shots at an attacker must be quality hits before adrenaline kicks in.
Half the diameter of a pie plate would be better.
Your first one or two shots at an attacker must be quality hits before adrenaline kicks in.
Half the diameter of a pie plate would be better.
cshoff
Member
Actually, after good defensive (or combat) accuracy is developed, you are much better off to eliminate "bullseyes" and/or other precise aiming points, altogether in your scenario drills. At that point, you should be trying to condition yourself to aiming at nondescript parts of the human body from varying angles; parts of the body that allow you to hit the vital organs in the high center mass region or cause disruption to the CNS.
Save the bullseyes and other aiming points for those days when you work on fundamentals.
photoman
Member
For any kind of serious defense practice, you should be using either silhouette or photo-realistic full size targets. Self defense marksmanship is not about small groupings, it's about hitting the target where it counts.
cshoff
Member
That is not so. It's been proven many times that even under the dynamics of a lethal force encounter, in many cases, the gunfight winner clearly remembers achieving a perfect/near perfect sight picture as he/she fired their gun. Now you certainly can't count on a perfect sight picture, and since a perfect sight picture isn't required for adequate defensive (combat) accuracy at nominal defensive ranges, we can allow for and accept some deviation from the perfect sight picture.
I'm not sure where this idea comes from that sights aren't used in defensive encounters. Clearly they can't be used under EVERY circumstance or when conditions call for you to shoot from retention, but they certainly can and SHOULD be used anytime you can bring the gun up to your sight plane. Every reputable instructor and training school I know of focuses MOST of their range time working towards developing shooting skills that involve sighted fire.
There isn't any one-size-fits-all process for defensive shooting. Certainly, some situations call for aimed fire; others do not. I don't need to attain a sight picture to shoot someone who is an arm's length away. Nor do I want to point shoot at someone 35 yards away.
The technique varies with the situation.
The technique varies with the situation.
After some thought, I think you said it best.
Much good advice here.
I am a complete amateur. I read a lot and practice as often as I can. I have 3 brothers who are cops, and a friend who manages a large protection company, so I get LOTS of advice.
For defensive practice, bench resting your defensive pistol or revolver and trying to get 2" groups at 25 yards make little sense to me, unless you are testing the actual accuracy of you and the gun. As stated many times most defensive shooting occurs within 8 yards. I know for me trying to hit a bulls eye at 25 or 50 yards is futile, I can't hardly see it with open iron sights anyway. And unless someone is actually shooting at me at 25 or more yards, or some other reason I can't think of, I don't think I would consider them a threat.
If you hold a 8" paper plate (or 8 1/2x11 paper folded to 8x8 ish) over the center of your chest, you can see that hitting that just about anywhere would cause sudden and significant health issues. The 7-8 yard 'standard' that most people state for self-defense practice is due to the estimate of the distance a goblin can cover in 2 seconds if attacking you. In a stressful situation your adrenalin will be flowing, you will have to rely on muscle memory.
Few years ago I started this way: You should be able to draw and shoot 2 in the paper plate within 2 seconds at 7-8 yards. This is a good beginner practice. Work on accuracy first - hitting the paper every time with those 1st 2 shots, then develop speed. Then try dropping to one knee and shoot, peeking around a barrier and shoot, laying on your back and shoot, all within 2 seconds.
There are a myriad of "self-help" drills you can do, lacking professional training in a class environment. A Google search found this pretty comprehensive list of practice drills, from flinch and dry-fire to multiple target:
http://practicalfirearmstraining.com/reading/HandgunDrillsPDF.pdf
HTH
I am a complete amateur. I read a lot and practice as often as I can. I have 3 brothers who are cops, and a friend who manages a large protection company, so I get LOTS of advice.
For defensive practice, bench resting your defensive pistol or revolver and trying to get 2" groups at 25 yards make little sense to me, unless you are testing the actual accuracy of you and the gun. As stated many times most defensive shooting occurs within 8 yards. I know for me trying to hit a bulls eye at 25 or 50 yards is futile, I can't hardly see it with open iron sights anyway. And unless someone is actually shooting at me at 25 or more yards, or some other reason I can't think of, I don't think I would consider them a threat.
If you hold a 8" paper plate (or 8 1/2x11 paper folded to 8x8 ish) over the center of your chest, you can see that hitting that just about anywhere would cause sudden and significant health issues. The 7-8 yard 'standard' that most people state for self-defense practice is due to the estimate of the distance a goblin can cover in 2 seconds if attacking you. In a stressful situation your adrenalin will be flowing, you will have to rely on muscle memory.
Few years ago I started this way: You should be able to draw and shoot 2 in the paper plate within 2 seconds at 7-8 yards. This is a good beginner practice. Work on accuracy first - hitting the paper every time with those 1st 2 shots, then develop speed. Then try dropping to one knee and shoot, peeking around a barrier and shoot, laying on your back and shoot, all within 2 seconds.
There are a myriad of "self-help" drills you can do, lacking professional training in a class environment. A Google search found this pretty comprehensive list of practice drills, from flinch and dry-fire to multiple target:
http://practicalfirearmstraining.com/reading/HandgunDrillsPDF.pdf
HTH
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My opinion, FWIW, is that most confrontations that could escalate into a deadly force situation will be closer than 20 feet. In the open air, you do not have the protection of the Castle Doctrine. A person appearing to be stalking you is not going to justify pulling a sidearm. Perps are not the brightest of people but even they do not begin threatening you from 50 feet. The more distance one has between them and the threat will also mean the more time to flee.
The last justified self defense case I worked was where a lady shot a man as she was pushed down and he was beating her while on top of her. She pulled and fired and he fell & died. They were so close, she had powder burns on her.
Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Well, not sure how many cases you have worked but I respectfully disagree in a couple of areas. Not once in 38 yrs have I had a justified shooting where the threat was far enough away to get time to aim and fire. The cases I worked where people had time to aim were in home invasions or in situations where the homeowner was expecting the door to give way, the guy was climbing in a window or such. One that stands out happened about 10 yrs ago and it involved a store owner watching his employee being robbed at gun point as he was concealed. He did not accurately aim but loosely aimed as he shot the bad guy. It is my belief that people refer to them aiming when actually they are closer to point shooting in times of stress.
If I have the time to get an accurate sight alignment, I have time to use other options in MOST CASES.
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cshoff
Member
So let me get this right. You are going to cite actual SD cases where people used sighted fire (which actually supports what I said in my post), and then you are going to "respectfully disagree" and say that you've never worked a case where the good guy had time to achieve a sight picture? Are you kidding me?
Your experiences, as extensive as they may be, are not all-inclusive and represent only a tiny fraction of SD shootings that took place over that same 38 year time period. I've read dozens of debriefings of actual SD shootings over the years and have seen numerous cases where the shooter lamented his or her "using the sights", "looking at the sights", or getting a "sight picture"; both law enforcement and civilian. In fact, I believe Mr. Ayoob has talked about several such cases in a couple of his books.
As I mentioned earlier, sighted fire is certainly not always possible or plausible in a lethal force encounter. The dynamics of the event will dictate what you can or can't do at the moment. However, sighted fire is regularly used by people in SD situations, even if only crudely. If getting a sight picture that allows you adequate defensive accuracy is taking you so long, then you might take a serious look at the rest of your technique, because you should be able to achieve that sight picture simultaneously while you perform your press out.
I find the distances that people decide in advance that a person isn't a threat to them interesting. Is the perpetrator's weapon somehow rendered useless beyond a set distance?
One should practice aimed AND unaimed fire. Only within the last 20 years or so have more citizens actually received valuable firearms training for the guns that they have purchased to protect themselves. You shouldn't say that b/c a victim in the late 1970's who received their firearms training from TV shows like Hawaii 5-0, got lucky in their self defense shooting, that you don't have to practice aimed fire at farther than bad breath distance if you are truly planning for the worst.
One should practice aimed AND unaimed fire. Only within the last 20 years or so have more citizens actually received valuable firearms training for the guns that they have purchased to protect themselves. You shouldn't say that b/c a victim in the late 1970's who received their firearms training from TV shows like Hawaii 5-0, got lucky in their self defense shooting, that you don't have to practice aimed fire at farther than bad breath distance if you are truly planning for the worst.
Erich
Member
My answer to the original post question is 4" at ten yards, fast. The (many) handgun shooting cases I've worked on have convinced me that it's a good idea to target specific anatomical structures in an attacker. (I have therefore studied anatomy to know where they'll be from various angles.) I feel that I'm competent to use a handgun for defense when I can rapidly (I don't have a set time for this - just to my satisfaction) put five shots into a circle that's 4" across at ten yards.
