Acceptable grouping size for Self Defense
- Thread starter Jack66
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
Shooting targets is one thing, shooting under pressure is another.
I try to get 2 inch groups at 25 feet on the range. Taking my time and getting one shot off, I can place shots in a three inch circle at 40 feet. Under duress, I might not could hit a 12 inch target at that range.
Officers train to shoot and most shootings are at distances less than 20 feet. Why then are so many shootings ending in total misses on both sides?
It has always been my thoughts that regular and routine practice is good for preparing one to shoot but certainly does not assure the accuracy needed when the real thing goes down.
I am of the fervent belief that "grouping size" is, at best, of very minimal importance. Shots on target...anywhere on target...are more important.
Of course, a shot(s) to center mass/head to stop a threat is best; however, any "hit" will have some effect...if only to give the person something to think about.
I was involved, peripherally, in an investigation of the death of a LEO. In that instance (a car stop), the LEO was assaulted by two shooters. He elected to try to run for cover instead of shooting back. In fact, he never unholstered his pistol. He had no chance of survival given his decision. My point is that any shot/hit has some effect; no shot, no effect.
Be safe.
Of course, a shot(s) to center mass/head to stop a threat is best; however, any "hit" will have some effect...if only to give the person something to think about.
I was involved, peripherally, in an investigation of the death of a LEO. In that instance (a car stop), the LEO was assaulted by two shooters. He elected to try to run for cover instead of shooting back. In fact, he never unholstered his pistol. He had no chance of survival given his decision. My point is that any shot/hit has some effect; no shot, no effect.
Be safe.
Depends on the gun and if you are measuring your groups in slow fire or under stress. As others have said, only hits count under stress.
If you are measuring your groups when you are slow firing, you need to keep practicing until your groups are as small as they can get. Because in a self defense shooting they are just going to get much worse.
With a service sized quality gun, at 15 feet slow fire, your shots should be one ragged hole.
If you are measuring your groups when you are slow firing, you need to keep practicing until your groups are as small as they can get. Because in a self defense shooting they are just going to get much worse.
With a service sized quality gun, at 15 feet slow fire, your shots should be one ragged hole.
cshoff
Member
People don't realize how precise your hits actually need to be if you want the best chances of an immediately neutralized threat. Simply "hitting" the threat won't necessarily cut it.
Everything that counts is inside this red box:
When the attacker is quartering away, quartering towards, or at any angle other than straight on, determining proper shot placement becomes even more of a challenge. Some study into human anatomy is a good idea for anyone who wants to be prepared to use a gun to defend him/herself.
Everything that counts is inside this red box:
When the attacker is quartering away, quartering towards, or at any angle other than straight on, determining proper shot placement becomes even more of a challenge. Some study into human anatomy is a good idea for anyone who wants to be prepared to use a gun to defend him/herself.
Steve in Vermont
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2011
- Messages
- 1,969
- Reaction score
- 1,379
I practice with a 36 and 640-1 at ranges of 3 to 7 yards. If I can put every shot into the center area of a standard sheet of copy paper (8X11) it's good enough for me. And most of my shooting is "point and shoot" since I'm concerned that in a stressful situation it's unlikely I'll take the time to "aim" and concentrate on trigger squeeze. I try to simulate real life scenarios as much as possible.
jdesro1911
Member
I don't have any statistics, but I would imagine that the distances would be pretty much the same regardless of whether it is Law Enforcement or citizen. I'd imagine most self-defense shootings happen at conversation distance - well within 7 yards.
As for "acceptable" group size, for me personally I never try to settle for just "good enough". I'm always trying to improve. If you can land all your shots into a 4" circle at 15 feet, next time at the range try to get all your shots into a 3" circle, then a 2" circle. There is always room for improvement, because even though most situations take place at close distance, you never really know what you might be up against.
As another poster pointed out, if you add stress, darkness, movement and even possibly injury, your shooting skills will deteriorate quickly. Add any of the above factors, and now your 4" group at 15 feet turns into a 24" group - and misses when you can least afford to miss.
This. Realizing after much practice that it was too difficult to shoot accurate groups with my J and mini-380 carry guns under the best of range circumstances, I went up a class to the compact 9mm.
As a LEO I was was involved in two deadly force encounters, both times using my issued .38 (+P). These shootings happened w/i the standard 7 - 10 yard distances so I guess there is some truth in the research.
In retirement I practice with my J frame shooting at a standard paper plate at 3, 5, 7, & 10 yards. If I keep all my shots on the plate, rapid fire, I'm happy that I can defend myself. I've read that others disagree w/this but again my opinion is based on my experiences.
As an aside I sometimes shoot at a standard man sized paper target at the same distances, shooting two in the body and one in the head.
The bottom line is practice with what you carry and hope you never have to use your skills.
In retirement I practice with my J frame shooting at a standard paper plate at 3, 5, 7, & 10 yards. If I keep all my shots on the plate, rapid fire, I'm happy that I can defend myself. I've read that others disagree w/this but again my opinion is based on my experiences.
As an aside I sometimes shoot at a standard man sized paper target at the same distances, shooting two in the body and one in the head.
The bottom line is practice with what you carry and hope you never have to use your skills.
There it is!!
Practice to hit that paper plate first time, every time, as fast as you can, whether standing, seated. ready or not, at whatever distance.
Working on target group size and slowing your shot to get that "perfect" sight picture is irrelevant to self-defense shooting. When the NRA put together the defense courses, they got advice from the seasoned experts and decided the "bullseye" should be no smaller than a paper plate, and that's what we teach.
First good hit usually wins, and there are no second-place trophies in a gunfight.
cshoff
Member
We often use a blank 8 1/2" X 11" sheet of paper as the "target" for our students in our NRA Personal Protection courses. Makes an ideal sized target area for a student to develop good defensive accuracy.
Smith357
US Veteran
I don't remember when or where I heard the paper plate thing but it was long ago. The paper plate is a great tool for getting combat/hunting accuracy with a handgun at close range and an unrested rifle at 100 yards.
I like a metal plate at 100 yards. Instant feedback.
We had this discussion a while back. A pie plate may be good to start with when new to guns, but not as a constant tool.
Your first one or two shots at an attacker must be quality hits before adrenaline kicks in.
Half the diameter of a pie plate would be better.
Your first one or two shots at an attacker must be quality hits before adrenaline kicks in.
Half the diameter of a pie plate would be better.
cshoff
Member
Actually, after good defensive (or combat) accuracy is developed, you are much better off to eliminate "bullseyes" and/or other precise aiming points, altogether in your scenario drills. At that point, you should be trying to condition yourself to aiming at nondescript parts of the human body from varying angles; parts of the body that allow you to hit the vital organs in the high center mass region or cause disruption to the CNS.
Save the bullseyes and other aiming points for those days when you work on fundamentals.
photoman
Member
For any kind of serious defense practice, you should be using either silhouette or photo-realistic full size targets. Self defense marksmanship is not about small groupings, it's about hitting the target where it counts.
