Acceptable grouping size for Self Defense

[jdesro1911]

I guess my whole issue is the concept of "acceptable" or "good enough". A couple people have touched on it, but I believe that there is never a level you can just say "OK, I can draw and hit a 10" paper plate in 1.5 sec. at 15 feet - I'm satisfied."
In my opinion, when you reach that level, then you should then try your hardest to get to the next level - a 5" paper plate at 15 feet from the draw in 1.5 sec. And when you can do that, a 3x5 index card.

My point is, I don't think you can just say "good enough" when it comes to a skill that has the potential to save your life. You should always strive to be the best you can. Sure, you may never be able to reach the skill level where you can hit a 3x5 index card at 25 yards from the draw in a second flat, but you should never stop trying to get to that level.

 

[photoman]

The original question implies something that can be quite dangerous to the person shooting in self defense. Standing still, shooting at a paper target with a perfect sight picture is poor training for real life. In all probability, that type of response with get you shot at the least and get you dead at the most.

Static firing range marksmanship is important, but don't fool youself into thinking that you're "good to go" if you can shoot a small grouping. Being able to shoot on the move with a poor (or no) sight picture is very important skill to have in order to surve a gunfight.

 

[oldman45]

I find the distances that people decide in advance that a person isn't a threat to them interesting. Is the perpetrator's weapon somehow rendered useless beyond a set distance?
.

All I am saying is that distance is also figured into the difference between justified and a possible homicide charge.

A man threatening a person from 50 ft is not a major threat. An person walking out your back door with gun in hand at 50 feet is not a threat unless he raises or points the gun at someone. Police officers routinely confront armed people but they cannot shoot just because the person is armed.

Granted, I do not want to see someone walking toward me with a gun in hand thirty feet away and if I do, I am going to try to be ready for a potential attack. Walking out of Walmart at night and into an armed person confronting me from 10 feet away will not allow me to respond and this is the most common type of event. I recently wrote about an officer standing in front of a store talking with an employee late at night. A young male pulled in as if to go inside but got just a few feet from the officer, pulled a gun and fatally shot the officer. A person cannot train for such or defend himself in that type scene, let alone get a proper sight stance.

Each year a lot of people are charged in shootings they felt justified but the courts saw it differently. Distance and other options are to be considered if possible. A few yrs back, I was confronted by an intoxicated individual with a .38 pointed at my chest. I was armed but remained calm and slowly backed away until he pulled off still pointing the gun at me. All I did was call it in and let patrol officers respond. He was located and arrested and I learned he had already threatened a uniformed sheriff deputy in the same way a few minutes earlier. The deputy chose the same action I did. Either of us would have been justified in drawing on the man but common sense dictated it was not the right thing to do at the time.

I still maintain that most shootings take place so fast that proper sighting is not possible and this is why so many gunfights result in total misses on both sides.

 

[photoman]

I still maintain that most shootings take place so fast that proper sighting is not possible and this is why so many gunfights result in total misses on both sides.

That and the fact that most people have never received any training in accurately firing a gun ~without~ using the sights.

 

[Jack66]

Definetly a lot of good information flowing here, Thanks!

Not meaning to sound like an amateur but can somone please clearify for me what "point shoot" is? I have seen this mentioned in a couple of posts.

 

[cshoff]

All I am saying is that distance is also figured into the difference between justified and a possible homicide charge.

A man threatening a person from 50 ft is not a major threat. An person walking out your back door with gun in hand at 50 feet is not a threat unless he raises or points the gun at someone. Police officers routinely confront armed people but they cannot shoot just because the person is armed.

Granted, I do not want to see someone walking toward me with a gun in hand thirty feet away and if I do, I am going to try to be ready for a potential attack. Walking out of Walmart at night and into an armed person confronting me from 10 feet away will not allow me to respond and this is the most common type of event. I recently wrote about an officer standing in front of a store talking with an employee late at night. A young male pulled in as if to go inside but got just a few feet from the officer, pulled a gun and fatally shot the officer. A person cannot train for such or defend himself in that type scene, let alone get a proper sight stance.

Each year a lot of people are charged in shootings they felt justified but the courts saw it differently. Distance and other options are to be considered if possible. A few yrs back, I was confronted by an intoxicated individual with a .38 pointed at my chest. I was armed but remained calm and slowly backed away until he pulled off still pointing the gun at me. All I did was call it in and let patrol officers respond. He was located and arrested and I learned he had already threatened a uniformed sheriff deputy in the same way a few minutes earlier. The deputy chose the same action I did. Either of us would have been justified in drawing on the man but common sense dictated it was not the right thing to do at the time.

I still maintain that most shootings take place so fast that proper sighting is not possible and this is why so many gunfights result in total misses on both sides.

And I would agree with most of what you said here. There are some situations that you simply can't be prepared for. An ambush is called an ambush for a reason, and while it's possible to train for how to respond once you've realized you are being ambushed, it's not always possible to detect an ambush before one happens. A person who slips into your personal space, undetected, places a gun against your head and pulls the trigger, is going to win the fight 99.99% of the time, no matter how advanced your shooting skills.

I always advocate "avoid, evade, retreat" whenever possible, and using force only as an absolute last resort. That said, the actions you must take are ultimately determined by your adversary, and it behooves us to always be prepared for the absolute worse situation.

 

[cshoff]

Definetly a lot of good information flowing here, Thanks!

Not meaning to sound like an amateur but can somone please clearify for me what "point shoot" is? I have seen this mentioned in a couple of posts.

You may get several different definitions, depending on who you ask, but IMHO, true "point shooting" is shooting the gun from any position that does not afford you the ability to visually use the sights or barrel of the gun to index the weapon to the target. An example of "point shooting" would be "shooting from the hip".

On the other hand, if you are visually able to index the gun to the target, either by using the sights or some other visual reference point on the gun, then it is "sighted fire", even if it is "roughly sighted". You are still visually aligning the target, the gun, and your eye in some sort of sight plane.

 

[photoman]

On the other hand, if you are visually able to index the gun to the target, either by using the sights or some other visual reference point on the gun, then it is "sighted fire", even if it is "roughly sighted". You are still visually aligning the target, the gun, and your eye in some sort of sight plane.

Certainly a debateable definition of point shooting.

 

[cshoff]

Certainly a debateable definition of point shooting.

That was a definition of "sighted fire".

 

[Jester84]

Personally, I rather get off more shots in a bigger group (4"- 6" inches) quicker over a few shots in a smaller group (2" - 3" inches) at a slower pace. Combat accuracy. Someone is trying to do harm/kill me or others around me and I want to stop the threat as quick as possible.

 

[Srigs]

My only concern for a SD shooting is to get the person to stop. I practice and aim in a triangle between teeth and each nipple. Now do that while you make an IDPA run and your doing good.

At the range, you learn trigger control and limits of your gun, ammo and yourself. Now learn to shoot strong hand only, weak hand only and not just two handed.

Lastly take a real drawing from holster class to actually teach you a good draw stroke and shooting. Then add movement. One of my favorite ways to do this is at a steel shoot with man vs man where your trying to hit plates while running, drawing, mag changes and accuracy to beat the guy next to you doing the same thing. That is fun and is good basics training.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

I attempt to make training as realistic as possible. One technique I use is to walk parallel to the (human silhouette) target from 7 yards or less, turn and walk directly towards the target. I try and simulate the target moving towards me. I then draw and fire 3 rounds before I reach the target. I can vary this, making the distance greater, or walking faster, but the bottom line is if I reach the target w/o scoring at least 2 solid hits I've failed. As far as a sight picture is concerned, I use point and shoot at those distances and seldom miss. But then I've been doing this for more years than I care to count. Try different techniques and find what works for you. Experiment, think out of the box. That's what makes this so interesting.

 

[67 GTO]

I can now shoot a 2" group at 7 yds. with my 642. In the past, I was all over the paper. The credit goes to my fourth set of grips, Crimson Trace.
I think they can be invaluable for self defense situations.

 

[cshoff]

I can now shoot a 2" group at 7 yds. with my 642. In the past, I was all over the paper. The credit goes to my fourth set of grips, Crimson Trace.
I think they can be invaluable for self defense situations.

They also make a very good target for your adversary to aim at.

 

[bruner]

As for as myself, I've got to know what kind of accuracy the gun is capable of. Shoot 20' till i get used to the gun. Back off to 50', just because that is about the longest distance in my house that I could possibly have to shoot. I expect no larger than a 3'' group at this range. That gives me target group to TRY to reach in all exercises of shooting while walking,running,falling, and yes, shooting behind me while running. Practice at night as well in the daytime. Mostly point shooting at silhouettes at different ranges expecting to get 6"x8" chest hits. In real life situation I would expect any group to be at least twice as large as the average practice group.

 

[Desert Pete]

Good Groups Provide Confidence

I strongly believe in good groups. My 1 7/8" bbl J-Frame in 32 H&R shoots inside of 6" at 25 yards. With that kind of performance, the only variable is the shooter.

My Taurus .380 will shoot inside of 8" at 25 feet. If my aim is off center, I can just as easily miss as hit. It is certainly better than no gun at all, and it is much easier to carry concealed but it does raise the chance that I will miss my target under pressure.

Since there is no target too big or too close to miss, I lean toward the gun I know will shoot where I aim it and do it every time. That would be the J-Frame.

 

[67 GTO]

They also make a very good target for your adversary to aim at.

As opposed to what, my body?
I think you're missing the point of my post.

 

[cshoff]

As opposed to what, my body?
I think you're missing the point of my post.

As opposed to them, perhaps, not knowing your location at all, depending on ambient light. Lasers are a good solution to a problem that only a small percentage of shooters actually have. In addition, I've found that a lot of people who have laser devices installed on their guns don't know how to use them effectively/correctly. I wouldn't recommend them for anyone who wasn't willing to get proper training on their use.

 

[Rule 303]

Minute of Center Mass at 50-75 yards.
If it does that, its good enough for me.
Most of my guns are far accurate than I.
My pistols are for holding off till I excape or reach my long guns.

Rule 303

 

[67 GTO]

As opposed to them, perhaps, not knowing your location at all, depending on ambient light. Lasers are a good solution to a problem that only a small percentage of shooters actually have. In addition, I've found that a lot of people who have laser devices installed on their guns don't know how to use them effectively/correctly. I wouldn't recommend them for anyone who wasn't willing to get proper training on their use.

really.

Does that mean I should also remove my tap shoes and neon orange coal miner's helmet?
Where can I purchase your book?

 

[cshoff]

really.

Does that mean I should also remove my tap shoes and neon orange coal miner's helmet?
Where can I purchase your book?

I don't have a book. But I can recommend some good trainers for you.

 

[vytoland]

single handed grip, DAO, left or right hand, 8" X 11" target at 10 yards, six rounds hit the target in three seconds.

 

[cjtraining]

IMHO the best practice is point shooting, no further out than ten yards with each hand and a two hand grip. Depending on the number of rounds your gun holds, fire no less than three rounds, pointing at center mass.

 

[cp1969]

IMHO the best practice is point shooting, no further out than ten yards with each hand and a two hand grip. Depending on the number of rounds your gun holds, fire no less than three rounds, pointing at center mass.

(It's also a lot of fun!)

 

[tom turner]

Good advice all, BUT . . .

that's ok for some people, but not for me. I've trained hard through the years, as well as competed in hundreds of handgun matches. Additionally, I've handgun hunted for deer for years now and all were one-shot kills except for one in the past decade or more. BULLET PLACEMENT COUNTS A LOT!

I've learned to shoot very accurately, and do it a lot faster than the average Joe type competitor who is going really slow in order to somehow hit that bowling pin or 6"-8" falling metal plate.

I've learned that only mortal shots in the right places will drop a deer instantly . . . and also learned that perfect hits don't always drop 'em for good until they run 70-100 yards or so . . . although I know they are dead when I shoot 'em. I don't like to track 'em at all.

I've also learned that when a hunter sets up a pie plate at 50-100 yards and throws a 6" group from his scoped 30.06 and declares "That's good enough," well . . . that means we're gonna be tracking a lot of deer we won't ever find with that "hunter!"

Folks, if you have to ask how accurate and fast you need to be, then you aren't there yet!!! Get outside and COMPETE! Learn how you really do when you are under stress . . . and learn how to shoot really, really well under stress.

TARGET SIZE? A regulation BOWLING PIN is about the right size as the critical mortal size of the heart area in the body. Screw the 6" target, learn to hit 5 of 5 bowling pins from the low ready, at the regulation ten yards in about five seconds or so, every time. Then learn how to win by shooting much faster than that and NOT missing. Lots of folks can do this, so increase your odds of success by being the person who learns to shoot this well . . . and hope your assailant hasn't prepared equally as well.

This all will prepare you better than trying to hit a 6" paper plate at ten feet, for keep in mind that your attacker won't be standing still either, nor should you!

IF YOU CAN'T FIND A PIN MATCH . . . check around and shoot some steel matches. Targets will probably be from 7-35 yards away, with most being 7-15 yards. Your first attempts will be humbling. It is better to be humbled at your first match, than killed in your first self defense effort against some thug who has already planned his attack, selected YOU as his victim AND chosen when you were not ready for him!!!

HANDGUN ACCURACY?

I like a gun that will shoot into point of aim at a ratio of 1" at ten yards. This kind of accuracy means 2" @ 20 yards, 2 1/2" at 25 yards, 5" at 50 yards, etc.

With practice, lots of fine guns (especially S&W revolvers) will do this . . . even a J frame like this!

TEN YARDS

TWENTY-FIVE YARDS

8" TARGET? I use a gallon milk jug to demonstrate the need for accuracy with my Model 29 topped by a red dot sight. DISTANCE? 200 yards.

Handguns can be EXTREMELY accurate . . . if we learn to do our part. Learn to do your part . . . protecting your life is worth it!

T.

 

[Chris A.]

For SD I always learned a couple of different things:

1) Practice, practice, practice

2) Practice from different positions, one handed and two handed, different sized targets.

The idea is to hit what you aim at given the available target (that's where the different sizes come into play -- simulation a full-frontal target vs. someone turned away or towards you). Being able to practice on moving targets would be even more ideal (though difficult to set up in many places).

If you can practice drawing from the holster, even better. Ayoob says in his book to measure the distances in the rooms of your house where you might be most likely to engage and intruder and then practice firing at those ranges.

 

[spikey614]

I didn't think that my S&W 49 was any good until I started to point shoot from the hip at 7, 10 and 15 feet.
from a standing draw I can now put rounds in the center mass of a 3D target. I use card board that I tape to simulate a head and torso of a person. I place old shirts on the targets and hang them from a line.

So far I'm standing while doing this type of shooting. I am verey pleased with my progress with the hits I'm getting using the J frame 38spl.I carry. I used to worry about getting the tightest groups I could until I was told that I needeed to practice without using the sights.

So grouping is important while shooting on paper but in a SD incident first Hits are better. Now this 3D targets are done at a friends range. I'll shoot paper at the public ranges and I even show folks how I do it.
I'm better with a 1911 45acp but I'm quicker with the M49 draw from the hip.

 

[Hexer]

Wow.......all I can say to all this is.............."That's mighty bold talk for a one eyed fat man."

 

[Big Cholla]

My first rule of self survival is to keep my 'situational awareness' peaked to the point that I am never in an actual gunfight. Failing that I vow to give myself every advantage that is possible under the existing conditions. I will have a handgun out of the holster and concealed behind my hip, under a newspaper, in a coat pocket for the first shot, etc. I practice regularly point shooting with my forearm clamped to my ribs, rapid 'rough sight' shooting using the silhouette shape of the handgun as my sight picture (distance to target is still very close), 'slightly better rough sight' picture with both eyes open and looking over the sights but not concentrating on them but rather watching the hands and movement of the adversary, and finally a really good fine sight picture with the front sight sharp and distinct and placed directly on the spot of the target that I want to hit as in when shooting an adversary that is closely holding a hostage.

Obviously time available vs. distance vs. dynamics of the situation is the big determiner of which sight picture and which technique is the preferred. To be a survivor of a gun fight one has to be the first with an effective shot or sometimes multiple effective shots. Any shooting encounter one engages in while standing still is probably going to be their last. All of the above must be practiced and perfected while falling down, moving sideways, moving backwards, moving forward, diving to a street curb, from lying down both prone and supine, from supine shooting over ones head..........well you get the picture. Know what cover is, know where cover is, use cover if available. Then finally learn all the above while in very low light conditions.

IMHO, if all one does is learn to shoot little tight groups while standing at some predetermined distance on a well lighted range, that person is going to get a big surprise IF they are ever in an actual gun fight. ................ Big Cholla

 

[Dusty Miller]

A half a dozen shots into the upper torso at arms length should get the job done. Sounds easy? Try it when the doo-doo hits the ventilator!