7shooter
Member
I'm still struggling with the idea that anybody actually patronizes Dunkin Donuts, what with their terrible coffee and mediocre doughnuts.
Never met a donut I didn't like.
Accidental discharge in Coconut Creek FL Dunkin Donuts
- Thread starter Trooperdan
- Start date
Never met a donut I didn't like.
okiegtrider
Member
I agree with you for the most part, but there are no absolutes.
There may not be time and opportunity to chamber a round, but there may very well be. It depends on the skill of the individual and the details of the specific scenario. I've come across some highly skilled individuals who train in the Israeli method and I would never describe them as being unprepared to defend themselves in an emergency defense scenario.
You state that you have "been there", which I take to imply that we should listen to you due to personal experience, but how many times have you "been there"? How many situations as a civilian carrying concealed? Does being victorious in a few street fights make someone an authority on combatives? Very few people have been in a significant number of gunfights. Chicago P.D's Bob Stasch has been in 14. The lessons he's taken away and subsequently recommends are to practice making headshots at close-range using one-handed point shooting. 14 gunfights is fairly substantial, yet I see very few taking his advice.
I'm by no means advocating empty-chamber carry and don't chose it myself, but I do think the idea that there will never be time is false.
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keith44spl
Member
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Given all of the discussion, I'm glad that I've got a 442 on layaway with the local emporium. It'll be lighter than my current pocket h/g - a Kahr CM9. I really like the CM9, it's been 100% reliable so far, but (I hate to admit) it takes gorilla arms to chamber a round in it. I've gone back a couple of times to check out the videos linked above. Pretty informative - the one with the police officer is sorta not fair - I think most folks would be toast trying to draw anything against an attacker who is already drawn on them and ready to fire. One other video appeared to be after dark at a stop-and-rob - which just isn't a good situation to place yourself into, per my comments above.
Like prolly everyone else - I've tried to think through this (very difficult with a Barney brain
) and decided the odds favor me dropping, or otherwise fumbling, an auto with a possible ND. An ND could mean losing my CCP and also might result in firearms loss, jail time, lawsuit, the works. Doubtful but possible. I've decided to balance that very real possibility up against the slimmest of chances of being jumped by some (used to be able to say thug).
Last, but not least, I agree 100% - there is no such thing as a bad donut, it's just that some are better than others!
Like prolly everyone else - I've tried to think through this (very difficult with a Barney brain
) and decided the odds favor me dropping, or otherwise fumbling, an auto with a possible ND. An ND could mean losing my CCP and also might result in firearms loss, jail time, lawsuit, the works. Doubtful but possible. I've decided to balance that very real possibility up against the slimmest of chances of being jumped by some (used to be able to say thug).Last, but not least, I agree 100% - there is no such thing as a bad donut, it's just that some are better than others!
Sounding a bit thin skinned there.
You said--and I quote--"...this validates my absolute rule of empty chamber outside the house if I'm carrying an auto."
So, are you saying you do carry with one in the chamber "inside" the house? Are you implying you are accident proof inside your house, or is your leg just bullet proof inside your house. Your logic in this matter escapes me entirely.
I could not care less about my post count. Seeing as I was not there to witness what happened, there is no more I could contribute to the actual incident. To do so would be speculation.
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Do you actually train for these types of scenarios?
I repeatedly see the possibility of being involved in an extreme close-quarter defense encounter presented as a reason why C3 carry is such a bad idea, yet when I bring up ECQ Force-on-Force training, a fairly sizable percentage of the responses have been snarky and dismissive.
If an individuals self-proclaimed situational awareness, alertness and intuition is the equivalence of having a spider-sense and so honed and keen that ECQ skills will never be needed, then C3 carry actually would present no problems. And what about the tap-rack-bang? If there is never time to chamber a round at the onset of a violent encounter, how is there likely time to do a more extensive action such as TRB during it?
A lot of the comments on this topic show a lack of insight and understanding of how knife attacks or any ECQ scenario really happens. You can find countless actual knife attacks on YouTube to get a good idea of the dynamics and mechanics. All are very similar. None are remotely similar to what most traditional martial art classes(including FMA's) or basic close-quarter shooting classes teach you to defend against.
Being well trained in ECQ and carrying C3 is IMO better than carrying hot and lacking such skills. That statement is by no means an endorsement of C3 carry, but only intended to provide perspective. Of course carrying hot and having such skills is obviously ideal.
This video is often shared to demonstrate why C3 carry is such a bad idea. The problem is she is stabbed either way. I don't know about you, but I have no interest in mutual slayings. If she had employed the proper unarmed defensive tactics and movement successfully, there is a fairly good chance of having time to chamber a round although maybe not. No guarantees either way.
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY[/ame]
Looks at the dynamics of actual assaults in the beginning of this video. Then look at the demonstration of some possible solutions presented by the Michael Janich. In just about all of them, there actually would be time to rack the slide. These were not full contact FoF scenarios, but you get the idea.
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=clEcOG6oKWo[/ame]
C3 is far from ideal and does carry with it certain limitations that potentially could have catastrophic consequences in certain instances, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as most make it out to be. It's all a non-issue in my case since I almost always carry a snub. I do however keep my home defense autos in C3. My main point is the situations where C3 would most likely cause problems are often going to be situations where ECQ skills are of the upmost importance and it would be a good idea to get some quality training or at least be somewhat familiar with what is most likely functional and effective within that skill-set.
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Mister X said:
Remember that thing I said about game theory? Same deal.
For me, carrying with a loaded chamber has no downside. I'm confident with it. Cheap, too!
What about this ECQ stuff you keep going on about? Okay, great--are you going to pay for my classes? How about my travel and lodging? Time off from work? I'm not married, but maybe for some of these other guys, you can write nice letters to their wives explaining why they need to watch the kids solo for a few days, maybe a week.
How about just practicing this stuff? Super--go find me a range within 150 miles of my current location with the facilities to allow me to do this. I'll wait.
If you feel I'm dismissive of you--and trust me, you'll know it when I am--then it's because you're advocating very expensive, hard-to-acquire training, when most people don't have the fundamentals down. And when I say, "fundamentals", read that as "basic handgun operation" and "remembering to turn the safety off".
People do not have unlimited resources, but it's very "in" to act like they do. So whether I hear the words "Simunition" or "Everyone should go to Gunsite!" or any one of a thousand other buzzwords and hard sells, I struggle not to be dismissive.
If you think I'm failing, sorry.
---
Now, this thread was about some dope managing to shoot a lady in a Dunkin Donuts. Wanna get back on topic? We can seek unity in our mutual derision of that mook.
The type or brand of firearm hasn't come to light, has it? It could have been a derringer or who knows. I personally know of a case where a fellow had just cleaned his derringer and had wiped it down with an oily rag. He was putting it on the top shelf of a closet. It slipped from his grasp and put a .357 mag. up between his legs. I had a revolver come out of an upside down shoulder holster. The hammer block on the S&W model 36 saved my bacon. It landed so hard the hammer spur broke off. My point is that there are gun accidents. I also know of a case of a robbery of a jewelry store where the owner liked the empty chamber for a semi-auto. When he went to the back to retrieve some merchandise, he also retrieved his .380. He tried to quietly rack the slide, so as to not alert the armed robber. He didn't manipulate the slide with enough force to fully chamber the round and when he pointed it at the robber, the pistol wouldn't fire. The jeweler paid with his life.
This reply appears to show the rationale for using a double-action revolver for EDC. No lost motion or need for complex drill, such as cycling the mechanism, to prep for shooting when the situation has degenerated to an emergency/panic that requires drawing your weapon.
I agree, but it is most likely that that is not what actually happened. Most likely is that the gun fired because the trigger was pulled. I wasn't there, but I'm not pulling this out of my ***. I would be willing to put serious money on my above statement, based on a certain amount of experience with life, liars and guns.
We shall see.
When you have just read the last sentence, it is hard to put a "Like" on this post, so I'll just quote it to let the poster know that I appreciate his having posted it.
I wasn't the one who brought up C3 carry and there were numerous posts addressing it, so I don't see it being off topic. I can't comment too much regarding the ND in the OP's story since I still don't know what precisely happened. It was you who introduced the "ECQ stuff". You didn't use the terminology, but it's the same thing nonetheless.
The downside of carrying with a loaded chamber is greater risk of unintentional discharges. There should be no disputing that the possibilities are higher with a C1 vs a C3 gun since having one with the latter is impossible. Most of us feel that the increased risks vs potential benefits ratio favor C1, but not everyone feels the same and I wouldn't say they are necessarily wrong.
While direct instruction is ideal, I think you can learn via other means. A lot of schools and instructors have put out numerous DVDs, books and offer distance learning programs and are pretty accessible online via phone, email, video chat and conferencing etc. for questions and additional information. A lot of them even put instructional videos on YouTube for free.
A reasonably intelligent person, especially one who already has had some training can definitely learn this way. Even running crude, but properly conducted drills using airsoft with like minded friends will offer benefits and increase understanding. The same applies with simply watching real footage of actual incidents. The bulk of ECQ training doesn't involve live fire, so it's actually cheaper than simply going into the range. More beneficial overall as well IMO. A lot of the classes and seminars I've attended over the years didn't offer much individual attention and instruction, so were not really much better than simply watching a video of the same material.
S&WIowegan
US Veteran
My guess is this incident didn't happen the way the gun owner claims. People make up stupid stories trying to cover-up their horrendously stupid acts.
Bet on it!
Bet on it!
I suppose I am somewhat at fault for causing this thread to drone on and on - with the empty chamber comment. But, I'm pretty set in my ways about avoiding handcuffs and jail time. (Pure speculation follows
) I would ask everyone to keep in mind that the majority of the public is likely not carrying and they seem to be surviving just fine! That said, the discourse has been interesting and I've enjoyed the videos …
Edited to add: There is no implied criticism in my statement above about the majority of the public not carrying. I carry every chance I can and wholeheartedly support all other lawful carriers. The one thing I do, whether carrying or not, is to keep my situational awareness as high as possible (given my feeble mind) to try to spot potential problems while they're still out of range!!
) I would ask everyone to keep in mind that the majority of the public is likely not carrying and they seem to be surviving just fine! That said, the discourse has been interesting and I've enjoyed the videos … Edited to add: There is no implied criticism in my statement above about the majority of the public not carrying. I carry every chance I can and wholeheartedly support all other lawful carriers. The one thing I do, whether carrying or not, is to keep my situational awareness as high as possible (given my feeble mind) to try to spot potential problems while they're still out of range!!
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Agree that most everyone gets by just fine not carrying a gun. Stats are on their side but I remember grad school stat class. There are lies, damn lies and statictics. I prefer to carry, especially now that I am too old to fight or run, and need a slight edge, stats not withstanding.
Rowlette
Member
At lot of VN Vets were trained to not chamber, we use our awareness first, size up the options, find protection, make sure free from friendlies then bring the weapon to engage.
Laughter is the key to happiness
Laughter is the key to happiness
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Protected One
Member
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