Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels

[jdubpro]

Got my Apex Grade Barrel from Brownells today. I fit it to my 5" M&P Pro in about 20 minutes. I had to take a little off the sides and back of the hood, and that was it. This thing is rock solid. The stock barrel wiggled front-to-back, side-to-side, and up and down when I moved the slide forward slightly. No movement at all on the Apex barrel.

 

[Magload]

I need one of those threaded for my Carver comp. Don

 

[Heyman]

Got my Apex Grade Barrel from Brownells today. I fit it to my 5" M&P Pro in about 20 minutes. I had to take a little off the sides and back of the hood, and that was it. This thing is rock solid. The stock barrel wiggled front-to-back, side-to-side, and up and down when I moved the slide forward slightly. No movement at all on the Apex barrel.

View attachment 223399

Did you get the gunsmith or semi drop in barrel?

 

[Jeffmc001]

Hi guys! New to this forum and m&p. Lots of things to learn and catch up for a newbie like me. Since the the topic here is accuracy and the fitting of Apex grade barrel, I have a question for Randy all the experienced shooters here. For sure the barrel to slide fitting is very important in accuracy, how about the slide to frame fitting for repeatability? My 9 FS slide has too much play/wiggle when the slide is closed. Do you guys think if the slide guide fits exactly to the slide will improve the accuracy? Thanks a lot. Jeff

 

[agksimon]

Hi guys! New to this forum and m&p. Lots of things to learn and catch up for a newbie like me. Since the the topic here is accuracy and the fitting of Apex grade barrel, I have a question for Randy all the experienced shooters here. For sure the barrel to slide fitting is very important in accuracy, how about the slide to frame fitting for repeatability? My 9 FS slide has too much play/wiggle when the slide is closed. Do you guys think if the slide guide fits exactly to the slide will improve the accuracy? Thanks a lot. Jeff

Slide to frame fit is probably the most critical of all the fitting. As per Randy, I have my gunsmith fit barrel fit so that if I close the slide slowly, it will lack about an eighth inch of being fully closed. If I let it go by slingshoting it, it will go fully into battery. This guarantees a tight lockup. Don't forget to apply a small amount of grease to the rails and the barrel lug, where it contacts the frame.

 

[Jeffmc001]

Slide to frame fit is probably the most critical of all the fitting. As per Randy, I have my gunsmith fit barrel fit so that if I close the slide slowly, it will lack about an eighth inch of being fully closed. If I let it go by slingshoting it, it will go fully into battery. This guarantees a tight lockup. Don't forget to apply a small amount of grease to the rails and the barrel lug, where it contacts the frame.

Thats what I thought with a loose slide to frame fit the shots will be all over the paper. And being a striker fired handgun, inconsistent trigger pull is possible. I've been using grease on the rail since day one to lessen the wear on the tiny slide guide. I think its time to order locking and sear block and make that slide guide more beefier. Thanks!

 

[RalphMP9FS]

Slide to frame fit is the least important. The sights are mounted on the slide, and you reacquire the target for each shot, so horizontal and vertical slide play is much less important as barrel lockup is.

 

[jdubpro]

Did you get the gunsmith or semi drop in barrel?

semi drop-in

 

[agksimon]

Slide to frame fit is the least important. The sights are mounted on the slide, and you reacquire the target for each shot, so horizontal and vertical slide play is much less important as barrel lockup is.

I used the wrong terminology in my last posting. I meant to say that the barrel has to lock up tightly against the slide and the frame, so it's not loose.

 

[JCase]

Hi,

The Gunsmith Fit barrel requires fitting in the exact same areas. The critical difference is that the barrel's bottom lug has much more material left on the horizontal surface so that guns with extreme slide to frame vertical tolerances can benefit.

This surface is best adjusted using a mill due to the amount of material and surface area that you have to work with. It will make the fitting time significantly shorter than trying to fit it with a file.

Randy,
In your experience have you seen where the frame vertical tolerances are so far out that the drop in semi fit barrel does not have enough "meat" that someone is forced to go with the gunsmith fit version?

If so is there a test that can be done to the gun and or drop in barrel before fitting, so it can be returned for the gunsmith version?

 

[shadowrider]

I had the same question as JCase. I'll just wait for Randy to answer. Great info in this thread, it's been a real eye opener.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I'm sure Apex will make some kind of accuracy claim. On their website they are claiming sub 2" groups at 50 yards and sub 1" groups at 25 yards. This is indeed better than what S&W says their barrels will do.

I agree. Impressive claim. I wonder how many buyers will understand that to mean firing with match ammo in a barrel test fixture to remove the human and bad ammo element from the equation.

Besides, once S&W switched to the 1:10 twist on the 9mm M&P rifling, the accuracy has been match grade from the factory.

As soon as everyone understands that shooting better cannot be achieved by anything except practice, and that buying after market fittings for a perfectly good pistol is not the answer, our wallets will all be in better shape.

That said, I have never seen anyone admit that the money they just spent on this or that after market gunsmithing or fitting did anything other than make them a crack marksman. LOL

So, I suggest everyone buy a pistol of good quality and several cases of good ammo, and practice, practice, practice. Your gun gets broken in, and you become a better shot.

 

[Magload]

One inch at 25 yards is better then most custom built 1911 are advertising. If they offered a 9mm 5" threaded with a Carver cut I would order one today. I was told that Storm Lake was bought by who I forgot and their barrels are now not as good.

 

[Rastoff]

As soon as everyone understands that shooting better cannot be achieved by anything except practice, and that buying after market fittings for a perfectly good pistol is not the answer, our wallets will all be in better shape.

You and I both know this will never happen. The entire gun industry in the US is built on the mythology that better equipment will make you an amazing shot.

OK, it's not all mythology. There is some truth to the idea that better equipment will make you a better shot. However, without the dedication to practice and training, that improvement will never be realized.

 

[agksimon]

I agree. Impressive claim. I wonder how many buyers will understand that to mean firing with match ammo in a barrel test fixture to remove the human and bad ammo element from the equation.

Besides, once S&W switched to the 1:10 twist on the 9mm M&P rifling, the accuracy has been match grade from the factory.

As soon as everyone understands that shooting better cannot be achieved by anything except practice, and that buying after market fittings for a perfectly good pistol is not the answer, our wallets will all be in better shape.

That said, I have never seen anyone admit that the money they just spent on this or that after market gunsmithing or fitting did anything other than make them a crack marksman. LOL

So, I suggest everyone buy a pistol of good quality and several cases of good ammo, and practice, practice, practice. Your gun gets broken in, and you become a better shot.

I just got back from the range with my Apex'd barrel 5" Pro. I was benchrest shooting 25 yards, toward a bank, covered in snow and the reflection didn't do me any good, but I still shot 2", five shot groups with it. That's a far cry from the 3.5" to 6" groups I was getting with the factory barrel, which is a 1 in 10 twist, build date, July 2015.

I've shot a few IDPA matches with the Apex barrel so far and whereas I was usually 30-35 points down, I'm now averaging 20-28. A lot of shots that used to be just outside the perforation, are now inside of it.
The barrel is worth every penny to me. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Magload]

You and I both know this will never happen. The entire gun industry in the US is built on the mythology that better equipment will make you an amazing shot.

OK, it's not all mythology. There is some truth to the idea that better equipment will make you a better shot. However, without the dedication to practice and training, that improvement will never be realized.

Good equipment will not make you a better shoot but will make your groups tighter. It may also give you pride in what you are shooting and want to shoot it more. You can practice till your finger falls off but you are not going to shoot 2" 25 yard groups with a gun that will only shoot 3 1/2" off a rest. Don

 

[Rastoff]

Good equipment will not make you a better shoot but will make your groups tighter.

I guess I'm not following your logic here. Isn't a tighter group better?

Obviously you can't consistently shoot a 1" group with a gun that's only capable of a 3" group.

 

[Prasko]

Randy, Have a quick question if you could.

You mentioned earlier in this thread that the M&P barrel accuracy is hindered by the fact that the barrel unlocks early. By moving the slide even in the slightest, the barrel moves. This is very obviously caused by the loose fit of the hood and lug.

I and several others on various boards have noticed that, due to design, flaw, or what have you, that when you pull the trigger the slide has a tendency to move backwards. This is obviously the striker spring being pulled backwards against the recoil spring. This also doesn't effect every pistol. My compact nor my shield exhibits this problem.

My question is, if pulling the trigger makes the slide retract, by even a 1/16th of an inch, wouldn't this also have a detrimental effect on accuracy? Wouldn't a low power striker spring and a higher lb recoil spring fix this?

 

[Dlister70]

As soon as everyone understands that shooting better cannot be achieved by anything except practice, and that buying after market fittings for a perfectly good pistol is not the answer, our wallets will all be in better shape.

If you want to shoot better, you have to practice more. I don't think you'd get any argument there. It's the "perfectly good pistol" portion of your statement that comes into play. The M&P series is a perfectly good self defense pistol, and easily will put shots into a bad guys chest at self defense distances when the need arises. That's what it was built for, and it does its job.

However, most M&P 9mm guns will not accurately put shots into the center of a bullseye at 25 yards. I don't think that's what Smith and Wesson was trying to accomplish when they made them, so I don't think I would stop calling it a "perfectly good pistol", but it could stand to be improved if that's what you are trying to do with it.

If you are using your M&P as a CCW, I don't think it needs an Apex barrel. But for scored paper target shooting, it can make a difference. If you routinely shoot outside the rings entirely, you need practice and not a new barrel. But if you find yourself skirting the lines from between a 10 to a bullseye or a 9 to a 10, then the Apex barrel will likely increase your average.

I need more practice before I can reliably hit a 2" bullseye offhand at 25 yards, but my scores have definitely gone up 10 points or so since I had the Apex barrel installed. I'm getting fewer 8s and 9s and getting closer to that elusive X ring!

 

[Magload]

I guess I'm not following your logic here. Isn't a tighter group better?

Obviously you can't consistently shoot a 1" group with a gun that's only capable of a 3" group.

That is because the tighter group is because of your equipment not your shooting skills. You can tighten a group by improving your shooting skills but once those skills are as good as you can get them for you then only equipment will tighten your groups more.

I shot tournament Field Archery for many years in the early 70s when the first compound bow made by Allen came out. I shot 3 hours a day everyday practicing and a tournament nearly every weekend. I shot in Unlimited Freestyle and the skills and competition got to the point the only way to add a couple points to your score was buying better gear. I was shooting 2 points from perfect in tournaments then the Navy sent me to a aircraft carrier for 3 years. I suspect you see the same thing in your pistol matches. But a good archer will out shoot a hand gunner any day. Don

 

[Srruger762]

This is my M&P Pro 5" at 25 yards with the factory barrel. 147 grain American eagle. From center out each ring is 1"

 

[x-cop]

M&P Accuracy

If you're going to promote your products here, don't you think you should donate to this forum?

How much word of mouth advertising here has helped your sales?

I dont know how much sales has been generated thru this forum by Randy's posts and dont care. But his reputation and knowlege is all I care about. Anything he has to post in the way of tech. info or testing, or whatever I am interested in. Whether or not I accept his info and decide to purchase one of the products his company sells is my decision.
I can tell you from personal experience after pruchasing a semi drop in bbl for my MP 9, I definitively saw an improvement in groups and accuracy. I could not test it in my Ransom Rest unfortunately(dont have the insert), but out of my hand could see the improvement. Did I need it, no, but wanted this particular gun to shoot better. The factory bbl has a 1:10 twist, and for my agenda, shot like ****(my opinion),4"-6" at 25yds. Now I am getting consistent 3" with an occasional flyer. At 50 was able to keep 99% of the rounds in the 9-10-X rings on a B-27 target. Will it shoot tighter, probably if I do my part better. At 50 with the factory bbl lucky to keep them in the 7 ring on in. Thats my 2 cents worth for whatever that is worth.
So ,anything Randy has to contribute I appreciate, and consider and will make up my own mind whether to purchase one of his products or not.

 

[C4IGrant]

Spare me. If you need to change your barrel on your M&P. It ain't the barrel. It's the hand on the pistol.

Incorrect. Accuracy is a KNOWN issue with the M&P's in 9mm.



C4

 

[C4IGrant]

Straight from the factory my S&W 40c shoots 1.75 inch groups off hand at 30 feet .. Have never had it shot from a rest but imagine it would shoot 1/2 inch groups at 30 feet if tightened down in a gun rest ....

Maybe I just got an exceptional one ..

That is ONLY 10yds. Accuracy is always checked at 25yds using 10rds or multiple 5rd groups.


C4

 

[C4IGrant]

Spending a couple hundred bucks to get an inch closer seems to me to be a waste of time. And since benchrest shooting is without a doubt the most impractical shooting there is, I'm not interested in what the groups shrink to in that scenario.

What I DO care about is :is the gun comfortable? Reliable? Has the features I want? Capable of hitting a paper plate standing at 25 yards?

If so, it's a winner. And the thought of spending 200 bucks on a gun and that already does that just seems like a waste of time and money.

For some, an 8/9 inch group at 25yds is just fine. For others (that can shoot sub 3" groups at 25yds while standing) it isn't. So for an accurate shooter, dropping $200 in a barrel that can produce 2" groups or better is well worth the money.


C4

 

[C4IGrant]

Randy, Have a quick question if you could.

You mentioned earlier in this thread that the M&P barrel accuracy is hindered by the fact that the barrel unlocks early. By moving the slide even in the slightest, the barrel moves. This is very obviously caused by the loose fit of the hood and lug.

I and several others on various boards have noticed that, due to design, flaw, or what have you, that when you pull the trigger the slide has a tendency to move backwards. This is obviously the striker spring being pulled backwards against the recoil spring. This also doesn't effect every pistol. My compact nor my shield exhibits this problem.

My question is, if pulling the trigger makes the slide retract, by even a 1/16th of an inch, wouldn't this also have a detrimental effect on accuracy? Wouldn't a low power striker spring and a higher lb recoil spring fix this?

Sigs, M&P's, Glock's, HK's, etc get their accuracy (primarily) by how well the hood locks up with the slide (around 80% IMHO). Other things such lug lock up, twist rate, etc play a roll in the last 15-20%. If you take a feeler gauge to a SIG or an HK pistol, you will notice that the hood to slide lock up is typically around .001 or better. This is why these guns will shoot circles around a Glock or M&P.

So the answer to your questions is no. A stronger striker spring and recoil spring fixes NOTHING on loose fitting barrel.


C4

 

[agksimon]

This is my M&P Pro 5" at 25 yards with the factory barrel. 147 grain American eagle. From center out each ring is 1"

I have found this same ammo and weight to give the best group sizes, before and after the installation of the Apex barrel. Before was almost, the same as your's, but after, it's about a third of this size.

 

[TacticalReload]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the amount of conflict going on in this thread. The whole M&P9 accuracy issue has been floating around for literally years, and it usually plays out the same way. Someone complains of poor accuracy, 8 or 9 people then say their gun runs great and tell the OP that he needs to practice more, then a couple of other people claim they have poor accuracy, repeat, repeat, repeat until it peters out. Somewhere in there isa good number of people who throw in the idea of "combat accuracy" and that the M&P isn't a bullseye gun.

I experienced (what I consider to be) substantial accuracy problems today at the range with my new PC ported CORE. I'm talking 5+" groups at 10 yards kind of bad. I didn't even bother taking it out farther than that because there would be no point. (My factory-barreled Glock 34 can cloverleaf shots at that distance off-hand with little effort.) This is the same kind of accuracy that Randy says he was getting from his M&P. I tried about 6 different loads in many different bullet weights -- all the same. I shot using the mounted RMR red dot and also with using the BUIS -- all the same. I know when I pull shots and can call flyers just fine. There were a few shots that I was sure broke on center that ended up 4", 5", or even 6" off at 10 yards. Even under the loosest definition of "combat accuracy", this ain't it.

I'm going to give it one more shot with a couple of different types of factory loads benched at 25 yards and snap pics that I can send to S&W. I simply don't understand how a gun that shoots this wildly could possibly leave the Performance Center. I'm hoping that they take my claims seriously and get me a ported barrel that shoots reasonably accurately... I'm not picky in this type of gun, but I will be unhappy with anything less than 3.5" benched at 25 yards. I don't think that's being unreasonable... I didn't buy this gun expecting it to give 1" groups at 25 yards, but I have no use for a gun (defensive, target, competition, or plinker) that isn't capable of consistently hitting a playing card sized target at 10 yards no matter how hard I try. After I get it back from S&W, I'm going to order one of these Apex barrels so I have a non-ported option that (HOPEFULLY) works as well as they claim.

Based on what I'm reading here, I fully expect that some of you will blame me. I can assure you that I'm confident that it's the gun, but that will not convince some. That's fine -- as long as I can convince S&W, I'm okay with it. However, there does seem to be a lot of excuses thrown around. If someone like Randy Lee says he's seen an issue, I'm pretty confident that one exists since his experience with M&Ps far out-weights others in both number and depth of research. And remember that it's just as unreasonable for people to claim all M&Ps work great based on one or two samples as it is for someone else to claim that all M&Ps are inaccurate based on their one or two samples... however, where there is smoke, there is usually fire; and there is a lot of smoke floating around.

And for people who are so sure that there ISN'T a problem, put your money where your mouth is... buy my gun from me as is for fair market value. It's bone stock and LNIB. Seriously, I dare you. ;-)

 

[C4IGrant]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the amount of conflict going on in this thread. The whole M&P9 accuracy issue has been floating around for literally years, and it usually plays out the same way. Someone complains of poor accuracy, 8 or 9 people then say their gun runs great and tell the OP that he needs to practice more, then a couple of other people claim they have poor accuracy, repeat, repeat, repeat until it peters out. Somewhere in there isa good number of people who throw in the idea of "combat accuracy" and that the M&P isn't a bullseye gun.

I experienced (what I consider to be) substantial accuracy problems today at the range with my new PC ported CORE. I'm talking 5+" groups at 10 yards kind of bad. I didn't even bother taking it out farther than that because there would be no point. (My factory-barreled Glock 34 can cloverleaf shots at that distance off-hand with little effort.) This is the same kind of accuracy that Randy says he was getting from his M&P. I tried about 6 different loads in many different bullet weights -- all the same. I shot using the mounted RMR red dot and also with using the BUIS -- all the same. I know when I pull shots and can call flyers just fine. There were a few shots that I was sure broke on center that ended up 4", 5", or even 6" off at 10 yards. Even under the loosest definition of "combat accuracy", this ain't it.

I'm going to give it one more shot with a couple of different types of factory loads benched at 25 yards and snap pics that I can send to S&W. I simply don't understand how a gun that shoots this wildly could possibly leave the Performance Center. I'm hoping that they take my claims seriously and get me a ported barrel that shoots reasonably accurately... I'm not picky in this type of gun, but I will be unhappy with anything less than 3.5" benched at 25 yards. I don't think that's being unreasonable... I didn't buy this gun expecting it to give 1" groups at 25 yards, but I have no use for a gun (defensive, target, competition, or plinker) that isn't capable of consistently hitting a playing card sized target at 10 yards no matter how hard I try. After I get it back from S&W, I'm going to order one of these Apex barrels so I have a non-ported option that (HOPEFULLY) works as well as they claim.

Based on what I'm reading here, I fully expect that some of you will blame me. I can assure you that I'm confident that it's the gun, but that will not convince some. That's fine -- as long as I can convince S&W, I'm okay with it. However, there does seem to be a lot of excuses thrown around. If someone like Randy Lee says he's seen an issue, I'm pretty confident that one exists since his experience with M&Ps far out-weights others in both number and depth of research. And remember that it's just as unreasonable for people to claim all M&Ps work great based on one or two samples as it is for someone else to claim that all M&Ps are inaccurate based on their one or two samples... however, where there is smoke, there is usually fire; and there is a lot of smoke floating around.

And for people who are so sure that there ISN'T a problem, put your money where your mouth is... buy my gun from me as is for fair market value. It's bone stock and LNIB. Seriously, I dare you. ;-)

I believe you (as I have seen it many times). I also wouldn't bother shooting any more ammo. Simply take a feeler gauge and measure the barrel hood to slide fit (remove the guide rod assembly before measuring). If it is over .004, then it will never group (consistently).


C4

 

[Srruger762]

I have found this same ammo and weight to give the best group sizes, before and after the installation of the Apex barrel. Before was almost, the same as your's, but after, it's about a third of this size.

If I can tighten up these groups i would be doing back flips. I shot again last night, it's not doing to bad for a stock barrel at 25 yards.
I'm ordering a gun smith fitted barrel today, I'll keep you posted on the results. I just wish it was ported. I might do the ports my self on the apex barrel. I have access to a EDM machine at work. But I'll shoot it before I do the ports.

The apex barrel is a 1/10 twist correct?