Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels

[Srruger762]

This is my M&P Pro 5" at 25 yards with the factory barrel. 147 grain American eagle. From center out each ring is 1"

 

[x-cop]

M&P Accuracy

If you're going to promote your products here, don't you think you should donate to this forum?

How much word of mouth advertising here has helped your sales?

I dont know how much sales has been generated thru this forum by Randy's posts and dont care. But his reputation and knowlege is all I care about. Anything he has to post in the way of tech. info or testing, or whatever I am interested in. Whether or not I accept his info and decide to purchase one of the products his company sells is my decision.
I can tell you from personal experience after pruchasing a semi drop in bbl for my MP 9, I definitively saw an improvement in groups and accuracy. I could not test it in my Ransom Rest unfortunately(dont have the insert), but out of my hand could see the improvement. Did I need it, no, but wanted this particular gun to shoot better. The factory bbl has a 1:10 twist, and for my agenda, shot like ****(my opinion),4"-6" at 25yds. Now I am getting consistent 3" with an occasional flyer. At 50 was able to keep 99% of the rounds in the 9-10-X rings on a B-27 target. Will it shoot tighter, probably if I do my part better. At 50 with the factory bbl lucky to keep them in the 7 ring on in. Thats my 2 cents worth for whatever that is worth.
So ,anything Randy has to contribute I appreciate, and consider and will make up my own mind whether to purchase one of his products or not.

 

[C4IGrant]

Spare me. If you need to change your barrel on your M&P. It ain't the barrel. It's the hand on the pistol.

Incorrect. Accuracy is a KNOWN issue with the M&P's in 9mm.



C4

 

[C4IGrant]

Straight from the factory my S&W 40c shoots 1.75 inch groups off hand at 30 feet .. Have never had it shot from a rest but imagine it would shoot 1/2 inch groups at 30 feet if tightened down in a gun rest ....

Maybe I just got an exceptional one ..

That is ONLY 10yds. Accuracy is always checked at 25yds using 10rds or multiple 5rd groups.


C4

 

[C4IGrant]

Spending a couple hundred bucks to get an inch closer seems to me to be a waste of time. And since benchrest shooting is without a doubt the most impractical shooting there is, I'm not interested in what the groups shrink to in that scenario.

What I DO care about is :is the gun comfortable? Reliable? Has the features I want? Capable of hitting a paper plate standing at 25 yards?

If so, it's a winner. And the thought of spending 200 bucks on a gun and that already does that just seems like a waste of time and money.

For some, an 8/9 inch group at 25yds is just fine. For others (that can shoot sub 3" groups at 25yds while standing) it isn't. So for an accurate shooter, dropping $200 in a barrel that can produce 2" groups or better is well worth the money.


C4

 

[C4IGrant]

Randy, Have a quick question if you could.

You mentioned earlier in this thread that the M&P barrel accuracy is hindered by the fact that the barrel unlocks early. By moving the slide even in the slightest, the barrel moves. This is very obviously caused by the loose fit of the hood and lug.

I and several others on various boards have noticed that, due to design, flaw, or what have you, that when you pull the trigger the slide has a tendency to move backwards. This is obviously the striker spring being pulled backwards against the recoil spring. This also doesn't effect every pistol. My compact nor my shield exhibits this problem.

My question is, if pulling the trigger makes the slide retract, by even a 1/16th of an inch, wouldn't this also have a detrimental effect on accuracy? Wouldn't a low power striker spring and a higher lb recoil spring fix this?

Sigs, M&P's, Glock's, HK's, etc get their accuracy (primarily) by how well the hood locks up with the slide (around 80% IMHO). Other things such lug lock up, twist rate, etc play a roll in the last 15-20%. If you take a feeler gauge to a SIG or an HK pistol, you will notice that the hood to slide lock up is typically around .001 or better. This is why these guns will shoot circles around a Glock or M&P.

So the answer to your questions is no. A stronger striker spring and recoil spring fixes NOTHING on loose fitting barrel.


C4

 

[agksimon]

This is my M&P Pro 5" at 25 yards with the factory barrel. 147 grain American eagle. From center out each ring is 1"

I have found this same ammo and weight to give the best group sizes, before and after the installation of the Apex barrel. Before was almost, the same as your's, but after, it's about a third of this size.

 

[TacticalReload]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the amount of conflict going on in this thread. The whole M&P9 accuracy issue has been floating around for literally years, and it usually plays out the same way. Someone complains of poor accuracy, 8 or 9 people then say their gun runs great and tell the OP that he needs to practice more, then a couple of other people claim they have poor accuracy, repeat, repeat, repeat until it peters out. Somewhere in there isa good number of people who throw in the idea of "combat accuracy" and that the M&P isn't a bullseye gun.

I experienced (what I consider to be) substantial accuracy problems today at the range with my new PC ported CORE. I'm talking 5+" groups at 10 yards kind of bad. I didn't even bother taking it out farther than that because there would be no point. (My factory-barreled Glock 34 can cloverleaf shots at that distance off-hand with little effort.) This is the same kind of accuracy that Randy says he was getting from his M&P. I tried about 6 different loads in many different bullet weights -- all the same. I shot using the mounted RMR red dot and also with using the BUIS -- all the same. I know when I pull shots and can call flyers just fine. There were a few shots that I was sure broke on center that ended up 4", 5", or even 6" off at 10 yards. Even under the loosest definition of "combat accuracy", this ain't it.

I'm going to give it one more shot with a couple of different types of factory loads benched at 25 yards and snap pics that I can send to S&W. I simply don't understand how a gun that shoots this wildly could possibly leave the Performance Center. I'm hoping that they take my claims seriously and get me a ported barrel that shoots reasonably accurately... I'm not picky in this type of gun, but I will be unhappy with anything less than 3.5" benched at 25 yards. I don't think that's being unreasonable... I didn't buy this gun expecting it to give 1" groups at 25 yards, but I have no use for a gun (defensive, target, competition, or plinker) that isn't capable of consistently hitting a playing card sized target at 10 yards no matter how hard I try. After I get it back from S&W, I'm going to order one of these Apex barrels so I have a non-ported option that (HOPEFULLY) works as well as they claim.

Based on what I'm reading here, I fully expect that some of you will blame me. I can assure you that I'm confident that it's the gun, but that will not convince some. That's fine -- as long as I can convince S&W, I'm okay with it. However, there does seem to be a lot of excuses thrown around. If someone like Randy Lee says he's seen an issue, I'm pretty confident that one exists since his experience with M&Ps far out-weights others in both number and depth of research. And remember that it's just as unreasonable for people to claim all M&Ps work great based on one or two samples as it is for someone else to claim that all M&Ps are inaccurate based on their one or two samples... however, where there is smoke, there is usually fire; and there is a lot of smoke floating around.

And for people who are so sure that there ISN'T a problem, put your money where your mouth is... buy my gun from me as is for fair market value. It's bone stock and LNIB. Seriously, I dare you. ;-)

 

[C4IGrant]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the amount of conflict going on in this thread. The whole M&P9 accuracy issue has been floating around for literally years, and it usually plays out the same way. Someone complains of poor accuracy, 8 or 9 people then say their gun runs great and tell the OP that he needs to practice more, then a couple of other people claim they have poor accuracy, repeat, repeat, repeat until it peters out. Somewhere in there isa good number of people who throw in the idea of "combat accuracy" and that the M&P isn't a bullseye gun.

I experienced (what I consider to be) substantial accuracy problems today at the range with my new PC ported CORE. I'm talking 5+" groups at 10 yards kind of bad. I didn't even bother taking it out farther than that because there would be no point. (My factory-barreled Glock 34 can cloverleaf shots at that distance off-hand with little effort.) This is the same kind of accuracy that Randy says he was getting from his M&P. I tried about 6 different loads in many different bullet weights -- all the same. I shot using the mounted RMR red dot and also with using the BUIS -- all the same. I know when I pull shots and can call flyers just fine. There were a few shots that I was sure broke on center that ended up 4", 5", or even 6" off at 10 yards. Even under the loosest definition of "combat accuracy", this ain't it.

I'm going to give it one more shot with a couple of different types of factory loads benched at 25 yards and snap pics that I can send to S&W. I simply don't understand how a gun that shoots this wildly could possibly leave the Performance Center. I'm hoping that they take my claims seriously and get me a ported barrel that shoots reasonably accurately... I'm not picky in this type of gun, but I will be unhappy with anything less than 3.5" benched at 25 yards. I don't think that's being unreasonable... I didn't buy this gun expecting it to give 1" groups at 25 yards, but I have no use for a gun (defensive, target, competition, or plinker) that isn't capable of consistently hitting a playing card sized target at 10 yards no matter how hard I try. After I get it back from S&W, I'm going to order one of these Apex barrels so I have a non-ported option that (HOPEFULLY) works as well as they claim.

Based on what I'm reading here, I fully expect that some of you will blame me. I can assure you that I'm confident that it's the gun, but that will not convince some. That's fine -- as long as I can convince S&W, I'm okay with it. However, there does seem to be a lot of excuses thrown around. If someone like Randy Lee says he's seen an issue, I'm pretty confident that one exists since his experience with M&Ps far out-weights others in both number and depth of research. And remember that it's just as unreasonable for people to claim all M&Ps work great based on one or two samples as it is for someone else to claim that all M&Ps are inaccurate based on their one or two samples... however, where there is smoke, there is usually fire; and there is a lot of smoke floating around.

And for people who are so sure that there ISN'T a problem, put your money where your mouth is... buy my gun from me as is for fair market value. It's bone stock and LNIB. Seriously, I dare you. ;-)

I believe you (as I have seen it many times). I also wouldn't bother shooting any more ammo. Simply take a feeler gauge and measure the barrel hood to slide fit (remove the guide rod assembly before measuring). If it is over .004, then it will never group (consistently).


C4

 

[Srruger762]

I have found this same ammo and weight to give the best group sizes, before and after the installation of the Apex barrel. Before was almost, the same as your's, but after, it's about a third of this size.

If I can tighten up these groups i would be doing back flips. I shot again last night, it's not doing to bad for a stock barrel at 25 yards.
I'm ordering a gun smith fitted barrel today, I'll keep you posted on the results. I just wish it was ported. I might do the ports my self on the apex barrel. I have access to a EDM machine at work. But I'll shoot it before I do the ports.

The apex barrel is a 1/10 twist correct?

 

[TAROMAN]

I believe you (as I have seen it many times). I also wouldn't bother shooting any more ammo. Simply take a feeler gauge and measure the barrel hood to slide fit (remove the guide rod assembly before measuring). If it is over .004, then it will never group (consistently).

C4

Just measured my 9L Pro. .017" clearance. Might explain why it isn't a very good shooter. Minute of bad guy, nothing better.

 

[agksimon]

Just measured my 9L Pro. .017" clearance. Might explain why it isn't a very good shooter. Minute of bad guy, nothing better.

My 5" Pro factory barrel had .008 front to back and .006 side to side. My Apex gunsmith fit barrel (fit it myself) has .0005 front to back and .001 side to side, as per Randy's instructions. It made a huge difference in group sizes.

 

[TacticalReload]

If I can tighten up these groups i would be doing back flips. I shot again last night, it's not doing to bad for a stock barrel at 25 yards.
I'm ordering a gun smith fitted barrel today, I'll keep you posted on the results. I just wish it was ported. I might do the ports my self on the apex barrel. I have access to a EDM machine at work. But I'll shoot it before I do the ports.

The apex barrel is a 1/10 twist correct?

If I could get mine to group like that at 25 yards offhand, I'd probably be happy enough. Here is the group I got at only 7 yards using the red dot while aiming at the number "1". It actually is one of the better groups I got with the M&P. I didn't call any flyers in this group. If I'm to stretch it to more than 3.5 times the distance (25 yards), figure it would open up to more than 3.5 times the size. Maybe 30-50% of the aimed shots go where I want them to (actually, to where I "call them"). The others randomly get thrown high / low / right / left. In this case, none of them went right, but the very next shots could have easily gone a few inches to the right of center, doubling the size of the group. There is no pattern to where they go... just that they are "loose".

 

[Pancakes&Syrup]

I've seen them say there are no Shield barrels in the works, but I would think a .40 to 9mm conversion barrel would sell like hot cakes.

 

[bulldogman]

After reading through some of this thread I decided to pull out my pistols and check the barrel to slide tolerances. My Sig SP2022 in 9mm is so tight there is absolutely no front to back movement, my Walther PPQ 4" in 9mm has a very small amount of front to back movement, the smallest feeler gauge I have is .003" which would not fit between the slide and barrel, my S&W FS9 had a gap of .005" and my Shield in 9mm has a gap of .007", the RSA was removed from all slides before measuring.

So is it any surprise that accuracy for me listed from best to worse is as follows:

SIG SP2022 No Gap
Walther PPQ Very Small Gap at least < .003"
S&W FS9 .005 Gap
S&W Shield .007 Gap

 

[riverfox]

Apex ten shot group

I fitted the Apex semi drop in 4.25" to my M&P CORE and today I shot two ten round groups at 15yrds from a sandbag rest. This was with open sights and the Apex competition spring kit and the forward flat faced trigger. Two strings of ten shots each. One was 1.75" and the other just under 2".
The combination of the fitted barrel and the trigger job made this the kind of gun I had hoped it would be.
I then took the same M&P frame and put my 5" .40cal slide with the KKM barrel under the same conditions, the only difference being that this slide had a JPoint. two 6 shot strings yielded 1.25" and the second one 1.50".
I am very happy with the KKM and the Apex parts.

 

[TacticalReload]

I fitted the Apex semi drop in 4.25" to my M&P CORE and today I shot two ten round groups at 15yrds from a sandbag rest. This was with open sights and the Apex competition spring kit and the forward flat faced trigger. Two strings of ten shots each. One was 1.75" and the other just under 2".
The combination of the fitted barrel and the trigger job made this the kind of gun I had hoped it would be.
I then took the same M&P frame and put my 5" .40cal slide with the KKM barrel under the same conditions, the only difference being that this slide had a JPoint. two 6 shot strings yielded 1.25" and the second one 1.50".
I am very happy with the KKM and the Apex parts.

Ballpark estimate... what was your group size under these same circumstances before with the stock barrel? Basically, I'm wondering how much improvement there was. I have one of these coming.

 

[riverfox]

Ballpark estimate... what was your group size under these same circumstances before with the stock barrel? Basically, I'm wondering how much improvement there was. I have one of these coming.

My, stock, from the factory was bordering on miserable. I was lucky to get a 4"-6" group. The KKM was not as tight fitting, obviously, as the Apex after the hand fitting but the KKM tightened up the group over the stock barrel.

 

[Grizzly Guy]

C'mon half of you guys act like hot rodding is a bad thing, for that you have put your man card in serious doubt. Are you telling me you wouldn't drop a Hi-Po 427 into your mini-van if you had the chance? Sure you don't need 400+ HP in a grocery getter but what happens when that 60K BMW pulls up next to you with a sneer at a red light? Are you just going to take it? Real men tinker, and I am happy for the option to upgrade for a lot less than a 427. My PC CORE 9mm ported shoots just fine but adding a JP J-Point was almost mandatory and it turned out to provide for a fun and effective shooting experience.

 

[Grizzly Guy]

That was uncalled for.

Agreed. 100%