Accurate INFO on Model 25

[Ray.Leiter]

I have 2 questions:
1. I'm told some Model 25s (.45 ACP) were miss-stamped by the factory on the barrel with "1950" when it should have been "1955".
My question is this; Does anyone know for certain if any of these revolvers have "25-2" stamped on the frame or do they all have just "25" stamped on the frame as the model?

2. The Model 25-2 (.45 ACP) revolvers -- do they require moon clips or do they use some other method to keep the rimless .45 ACP cartridges from slipping into the cylinder?

 

[StrawHat]

Someone else will be able to answer #1.

To the best of my knowledge, the M25-2 needed the moon clips to eject the cartridges from the cylinder. The cartridges could be loaded without the clips and fired as the chamber properly headspaced the cartridges using the mouth of the cartridge. More recent models chambered for the 45 ACp cartridge may not properly chamber the cartridge as the cylinders are bored through with no "step".

 

[Doc44]

The revolvers incorrectly stamped on the barrel are correctly stamped MOD. 25-2 in the yoke cut. This model requires the use of moon clips when using 45 ACP ammunition unless you want to extract each case individually with a pencil or other type of tool. You can shoot 45 Auto Rim ammunition without using moon clips and extract the cases using the extractor.

Bill

 

[Ray.Leiter]

Regarding Question 1 about the miss-stamped model 25s

The revolvers incorrectly stamped on the barrel are correctly stamped MOD. 25-2 in the yoke cut. This model requires the use of moon clips when using 45 ACP ammunition unless you want to extract each case individually with a pencil or other type of tool. You can shoot 45 Auto Rim ammunition without using moon clips and extract the cases using the extractor.

Bill

It's difficult for me to imagine the miss-stamped models being stamped on the frame with "25-2"!
Here's why.
In a letter I recently received from Roy Jinks, he says the miss-stamping occurred in Sep. 1976 on 1000 of the Model 25s. Then, in a paragraph immediately prior to the one just described, he says

"In 1977, S&W began offering the Model 25 in .45 Colt caliber. This meant that the same model was available in two different calibers. The designation Model 25-2 became important as it indicated the revolver was manufactured in the .45 ACP cartridge. Whereas designation Model 25-5 indicated the revolver was chambered for the .45 Colt cartridge."

If what I've quoted is actually accurate, then why would S&W stamp a Model 25 with "25-2" in Sep. 1976 -- BEFORE the introduction of the .45 Colt version of the model, since it was the introduction of the additional caliber that led to the need for the different stamping (in this case 25-2).

If I'm understanding Roy correctly, the need for the designation "25-2" only arose AFTER the introduction of the Model 25 in the .45 Colt caliber -- prior to that introduction, the "25-2" designation would presumably have no purpose unless there was something else requiring a distinction to be made between Model 25s other than the caliber.

When you say the miss-stamped model are stamped "25-2" -- are you simply reporting commonly held beliefs OR did you actually see a miss-stamped Model 25 with the "25-2" stamped on the frame?

 

[Ray.Leiter]

With regard to question #2 (moon clips);
Based on the replies received to my 2 question post, I have the following impressions:
The model number stamped on the frame is of this form: 25-x where x is a 1 or 2 digit number (the 'dash #').
The dash #s I am aware of are; 2,3,4,5,7,9,12 and 15.
The only ones I think relate to .45 ACP are; 2 and 12?
I'm not considering any Model 25 which may have undergone some customization such as the one I have which is stamped "25-2" but is a 8 3/8 barrel .45 Colt.
My impressions: The Model 25 was originally chambered for .45 ACP (a rimless cartridge) and yet the piece was manufactured with an ejector which depended on the cartridge rim to be of any value in ejecting the spent cartridges. I chalk that up to S&W wanting to appeal to the use of the .45 Auto rim cartridge. Further, I'm under the impression that the six cylinder bores may not have been the same dimension all the way through for all Model 25s. Perhaps the Model 25 began life with all bores the same dimension all the way through and then later it was changed.
So, I'm hearing that some Model 25s (maybe ALL "25-2"s) have a 'step' in each bore so the cartridge would seat properly and thus could be fired.
Further, it seems as though these 'moon clips' are ONLY necessary in the cylinders with the 'step' if you wish to use the ejector, BUT, in those Model 25s without the step (assuming they actually exist), the moon clip is NECESSARY! Otherwise it would appear the cartridge would pass through the cylinder bore (at least to some extent).

I'm wondering if Roy Jinks' book has the answers I seek -- I may have to purchase it. My only regret is I think it only covers revolvers made up to some time in the 70s (1978 ?).

 

[Doc44]

The stamping of MOD. 25-2 began in late 1962 when the cylinder stop plunger screw was eliminated and revolvers with a 3-screw frame began to be shipped. The right side of the barrel on the Model 25-5 is also stamped 45 COLT CTG. and not 45 CAL. MODEL 1955. The incorrect stamping refers to 1950 being used in place of 1955 and was used originally on the Pre-Model 26 that was introduced in 1950. Someone simply used the wrong tooling to stamp the barrels and S&W shipped the guns with these barrels rather than scrap them. I had one of these guns for a couple of years and it was stamped MOD. 25-2 in the yoke cut.

Bill

 

[Doc44]

Roy's book does not have the answers to your questions. The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson by Supica and Nahas (4th edition) might give you more information. The 1955 45 Target revolver introduced in March 1955 always had a a cylinder that would accept a 45 ACP cartridge without a full or half moon clip, but the extraction had to be manually carried out with a pencil or other type of tool. I have owned a few of these revolvers over the years, and have never seen one whose cylinder was bored differently.

Bill

 

[29aholic]

To my knowledge the only 45acp guns that did not have a "step" as you call it were some of the later war era 1917 Colts and possibly some of the 1917 S&W's but to be honest I haven't seen that many 1917 Smiths. All S&W 45acp target models have a "step" or more correctly a chamber making it possible to shoot 45acp ammo without having to use a clip. They will not extract mechanically, but require the use of your finger nail or some other tool. Obviously you can use 45 auto rim cartridges, but they are hard to find. I believe the AR round/case was designed to be shot in revolvers with no chamber.


To further address your posts, Smiths in the 60's and 70's were notorious for having oversized throats which could affect accuracy somewhat when using cast bullets. It was the late 70's early 80's before the factory addressed this and the 25-5 typically does not have the same problem. It is not an insurmountable issue as most bullet casters offer slightly oversized bullets for sale.

 

[Pizza Bob]

More recent models chambered for the 45 ACp cartridge may not properly chamber the cartridge as the cylinders are bored through with no "step".

The only S&W models that are bored straight through would be the Governor as they also shoot the .45 Colt cartridge and the 410 shotgun round. Some of the Colt 1917's were bored straight through, but AFAIK, all 25's, 625's and 325's - whether ACP or Colt - have a shoulder in the chamber at the beginning of the throat.

Here is my take on the use of moon clips:

There may be people that tell you that you can use your rimless cartridge moon clip gun without moon clips. They will claim that the round will headspace on the shoulder in the chamber, theoretically, they are correct. However, since SAAMI sets the specs for cartridge dimensions, the shoulder is placed at maximum case length depth for a given caliber. My experience has been that any factory ammo or brass, when new, is always considerably less than this dimension - meaning that, in reality, headspacing on that shoulder, by the case mouth, seldom actually occurs.

This is more common with newer .45 ACP guns with SAAMI-spec chambers. While SAAMI has been around since 1926 and the .45 ACP was adopted in its current form in 1911, the SAAMI chamber dimension drawings weren’t done until 1979. So it is quite possible that early .45 ACP revolvers may be more likely to function without clips with a higher rate of reliability, than guns made post-1979, as chamber dimensions were at the discretion of the manufacturer.

What does happen is that variances in chamber roundness, smoothness, cleanliness and other variables, will hold some cartridges firmly enough that a firing pin strike will ignite the primers. Others are driven forward in the chamber, which results in a light primer strike and a failure to ignite.

Just as some rounds are held tightly enough for ignition and others are driven forward, some cases may drop out of the cylinder from gravity, while others may be "pluckable" and yet others will have to be poked out using a rod.

You should consider moon clips essential for any revolver that is chambered for a rimless or semi-rimmed round. The other alternative is using the rimmed version of that round, if one exists.

Moon clips are the greatest thing since sliced bread and people’s aversion to them is, most likely, founded in falsehoods found on the Internet or from people who either have no personal experience, or just a passing experience with them. In order to fully utilize, and fully enjoy, them requires the right tool(s) to load and unload the clips.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[Doc44]

The photo below shows a 1955 45 Target revolver with a factory 4-inch barrel. The revolver was built for Remington in 1955 from a 1950 45 Target that had been shipped to them several years earlier.

Bill

 

[Jim Watson]

Lot of funny ideas here.

As far as I can tell, every .45 ACP S&W since introduction for the Army in 1917 has the "step" in the chambers for headspace control, just like the automatic.

The .45 Auto Rim was introduced ca 1920 by Peters to avoid the need for clips.

I have READ of 625 series guns with chambers too long to allow use of unclipped ACPs, making them dependent on clips or ARs. But they are not "bored straight through" or "without chambers." Just missed on spec.

I have read many times that 50,000 Colt 1917s were "bored straight through" but such guns are seldom seen. I wonder if they had a cylinder replacement program when they saw what Smith was doing.

 

[Ray.Leiter]

Thanks to all who responded to my posts regarding misinformation on S&W Model 25s.
I now have a much better understanding of the issues relating to the Model 25-2 with respect to the moon clips and whether it makes sense to ignore them.
I think it does not!
I have a bid on a S&W Model 25-2 -- perhaps I'll own one shortly:
Smith & Wesson 25-2 Model 1955 45 ACP Target Nice : Revolvers at GunBroker.com

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Here is my take on the use of moon clips:

There may be people that tell you that you can use your rimless cartridge moon clip gun without moon clips. They will claim that the round will headspace on the shoulder in the chamber, theoretically, they are correct. However, since SAAMI sets the specs for cartridge dimensions, the shoulder is placed at maximum case length depth for a given caliber. My experience has been that any factory ammo or brass, when new, is always considerably less than this dimension - meaning that, in reality, headspacing on that shoulder, by the case mouth, seldom actually occurs.

This is more common with newer .45 ACP guns with SAAMI-spec chambers. While SAAMI has been around since 1926 and the .45 ACP was adopted in its current form in 1911, the SAAMI chamber dimension drawings weren’t done until 1979. So it is quite possible that early .45 ACP revolvers may be more likely to function without clips with a higher rate of reliability, than guns made post-1979, as chamber dimensions were at the discretion of the manufacturer.

What does happen is that variances in chamber roundness, smoothness, cleanliness and other variables, will hold some cartridges firmly enough that a firing pin strike will ignite the primers. Others are driven forward in the chamber, which results in a light primer strike and a failure to ignite.

Just as some rounds are held tightly enough for ignition and others are driven forward, some cases may drop out of the cylinder from gravity, while others may be "pluckable" and yet others will have to be poked out using a rod.

You should consider moon clips essential for any revolver that is chambered for a rimless or semi-rimmed round. The other alternative is using the rimmed version of that round, if one exists.

Moon clips are the greatest thing since sliced bread and people’s aversion to them is, most likely, founded in falsehoods found on the Internet or from people who either have no personal experience, or just a passing experience with them. In order to fully utilize, and fully enjoy, them requires the right tool(s) to load and unload the clips.

Here is my take on the use of moon clips:

Moon clips are the greatest thing since sliced bread. However, in order to fully utilize, and fully enjoy, them may require the right tool(s) to load and unload the clips, and the time it takes to use them. For target practice, it may not be worth the bother.

I have owned two 25-2s, a 325, and a 22-4 (factory repro 1917), and have used a large variety of factory ammo. I have never had a FTF without clips, and removal of cases usually involves opening the cylinder while pointing the muzzle skyward, watching most or all of the cases fall out, and perhaps pulling one or two out. I may have had to poke one or two out, but it was so long ago I can barely remember it.

You'd be crazy not to use moon clips on a carry gun, but for target, it really doesn't matter much, especially with the 25.

 

[Jim Watson]

For casual shooting, the plastic RIMZ clips are easy to load and unload but may not be secure enough for competition. Saves the expense and hunt for Auto Rim. Caution, buy the one suited to your vintage of gun, ratchets differ and so does the center hole in the RIMZ.
Ez Moon Clips

I keep dedicated clipgun brass with no burrs or dings from automatic ejectors. That, and inspection of clips for flatness, avoids binding.

 

[bananaman]

Thanks to all who responded to my posts regarding misinformation on S&W Model 25s.
I now have a much better understanding of the issues relating to the Model 25-2 with respect to the moon clips and whether it makes sense to ignore them.
I think it does not!
I have a bid on a S&W Model 25-2 -- perhaps I'll own one shortly:
Smith & Wesson 25-2 Model 1955 45 ACP Target Nice : Revolvers at GunBroker.com

Hope you are successful! It looks like a nice 1 from the pictures. I have a 625JM, and a 25-15 (Colt) Both are a pleasure to shoot. Let us know how you make out! Bob

 

[Mike C2]

Thanks to all who responded to my posts regarding misinformation on S&W Model 25s.
I now have a much better understanding of the issues relating to the Model 25-2 with respect to the moon clips and whether it makes sense to ignore them.
I think it does not!
I have a bid on a S&W Model 25-2 -- perhaps I'll own one shortly:
Smith & Wesson 25-2 Model 1955 45 ACP Target Nice : Revolvers at GunBroker.com

With Buy-it-Now only $63 more than the current bid and 7 days left on the auction I think I'd push the BIN button if you want that one...

 

[Walter Rego]

I have a Model 25-2 in the N338,000 serial number range that dates from 1976. It is one of the guns that is mis-marked Model 1950 instead of Model 1955. The explanation I read is that as major parts are run in fairly large batches around 1000 barrels were marked with the wrong roll die before the error was caught. They are the correct heavy contour Model 1955 barrels and not the Model 1950 tapered profile, they are just mis-marked. Hard to say whether the factory caught the error and assembled the guns anyway, not wanting to scrap expensive parts or didn't catch it. For a while S&W sent back a letter to owners who wrote to the factory asking about it and they offered to swap barrels out if the customer sent the gun in. I doubt many people did. All of the ones that I have observed are in the general N330,000 S/N range so a number of 1000 or 1200 or even 1500 may exist. They are not rare but are interesting. They are 6.5" barrels which are more desirable than the later production 6" barreled Model 25-2's.
Regarding the chamber throats, mine measure .455". I was surprised as I had fired it with factory hardball before I measured it and it was quite accurate. Some members report the ones with oversize throats are finicky with cast bullets so some experimentation with bullet diameters and especially Brinnell hardness seems to be in order, I suspect that harder bullets should shoot well since hardball does. Would I have preferred .452" throats ? Yep. Would I trade mine for a newer non-pinned model with a 6" barrel and smaller throats ? Nope.

 

[Jim Watson]

As an aside, I have long wondered why the 1955 .45 became model 25 while the 1950 .45 turned into model 26. Recalling that the 1950 .44 is model 24, do I conclude that the clerk making up the model number chart forgot about the slow selling 1950 .45 and put it in before moving on to the .357?

 

[BlackAgnes]

Reading between the lines, I think one point of confusion is the use of the -2 with the model number.

Do 25 (no dash) and 25-1 stampings exist?

 

[29aholic]

Yes Model 25 no dashes do exist. I have owned one. I have never seen a -1 but that doesn't mean anything.
Since the 25 originally came out in 1955 prior to Model numbers the first change would be the model number. The engineering change normally associated with a -1 would be the left hand threaded ejector rod. I don't recall what the -2 change was, but it was the last change for the 45's. When talking 44 magnums there were several more changes the -3 was the the change from P&R to no pin and no recess.