Aluminum frame loads? Safe for Scandium?

[gehlsurf]

Hi guys,

Been working up some big subsonic thumpers for my Ruger 77/357. I also load for a 327 TRR8 (Scandium frame). This revolver shoots ANYTHING ACCURATELY, its the little 77 that's picky. So I've been loading to its accuracy, and the TRR8 will use its loads well, in theory.

So while looking at some 200 grain load data, it states not to use in Aluminum frames. Are these safe for a Scandium frame? And while asking. What gun does have an aluminum frame?

As usual, thank you for any insight.

 

[ridgewalker]

First I have to say I have never shot bullets larger than 158 gr from any of my guns chambered for 357 magnum so I will not address that part of your question.
Regarding aluminum vs scandium, the scandium is the stronger frame material. No aluminum framed S&W revolvers are chambered for 357 or 44 magnum. However there are several S&W models with Scandium frames chambered in these magnum calibers. Examples of Scandium models are N frame TRR8, 327PC and the 329 PC and 329 NG. In J frame there are several Scandium models including the M&P 340. All the Night Guard models are Scandium and several of those models are chambered for magnum cartridges.

Included photos of a M&P 340, 327 PC, 329 NG, and 386 Light Hunter.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I think you will be better served by asking Smith & Wesson.

 

[Mister X]

While they are indeed stronger than regular aluminum alloy guns, Scandium frame guns are aluminum and I myself would pretty much treat them as such.

 

[Narragansett]

I mean no disrespect here, but I see countless threads about pushing guns to extreme limits, especially these small hand cannon 357's that only weigh 11 oz. I for 1 would not load above 158 grain. I do not think the aluminum guns can take a constant +P diet, and the alloy 357's while stronger they are not that much stronger. I just read on one scandium gun that was 357 mag that it was rated for continuous +P loads. Does that mean it is not rated for continuous 357?? I don't know, to each his own, but they are a group of guns I personally would avoid. i do not even think I would push my N frame 28's that hard. Just my .02

 

[gehlsurf]

Ok, fair enough. They weren't fast loads, 200 grains at about 750 FPS, hence I was looking at them for my Ruger 77 and subsonic rounds.

I have been loading 180 grain bullets, and havent seen any warnings on those loads (same place that warns of the 200 grn loads), so will stick to 180's as the max grain bullers in it. Highly doubt anything I hunt will notice 10% difference in weight. Even then, I keep them pretty low on the power scale. As stated, these are more for my rifle, but in a pinch, wanted something for both.

The idea was 180 grain subs (38 spl loads) for rifle and revolver, 158 SWC or RN for faster 357 loads, as I can get a good speed up on those with moderate loads. I see no point in pushing a 180 grn load to get just slightly over subsonic territory.

That said, ......if anybody has some warning for me on the 180 grain loads, please let me know. I've just started on the heavier bullets. Previously just been sticking to 158 grain bullets.

If anybody has hunted with sub 158 Grain bullets, again, PLEASE let me know, maybe I'm chasing a big thumper for no reason but wasting lead, lol.

 

[gehlsurf]

Good advice on calling!! 200 grain bullet is the MAX, 180 is ok, 158 is reccomended.

So maybe I just stick with 158-160 or so.

 

[ridgewalker]

So when S&W marks one of their guns magnum on the side of the barrel I tend to believe them. That was my point in my post above. If those Scandium framed revolvers can take magnum pressures then I would tend to believe they can take the subsonic loads you are asking about. The 44 magnum revolvers can safely shoot 240 grain bullets. They are not that much beefier than the 357 magnum guns if you look at them side by side.

Pictured below, 386 NG and 329 NG

 

[American1776]

My opinion: a S&W revolver was originally spec-ed with steel as the material. As such, unless the aluminum or scandium frame is significantly 'beefed up' from the original steel design, it's going to be compromised in longevity and strength.

Same goes for 1911 frames. It was originally built with steel specs, so unless an aluminum frame is built up more, it will be weaker.

Some guns are built and designed from the ground up with aluminum in mind. Look how thick a Beretta or Sig frame is. It's much thicker than a steel framed pistol, because the weaker material necessitated that compensation.

 

[rwsmith]

Scandium gun.....

Scandium is an Aluminum-Scandium alloy. The stuff is rare and expensive and few percent in the mix adds loads of strength to the aluminum.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Scandium works for me

Regarding aluminum vs scandium, the scandium is the stronger frame material. No aluminum framed S&W revolvers are chambered for 357 or 44 magnum. However there are several S&W models with Scandium frames chambered in these magnum calibers.

First & foremost, Sc-Al alloy frames are aluminum. According to Wikipedia, only .1% to .5% scandium is added, by weight, to the aluminum alloy used which increases it's original alloy yield strength, by 7k to 10k psi, by changing it's grain structure.

They are aluminum alloy frames strengthened with (traces of) scandium.

"Scandium is also a potent grain refiner in cast aluminium alloys, and atom for atom, the most potent strengthener in aluminium, both as a result of grain refinement and precipitation strengthening."


(It's probably a marketing strategy to call it Sc-Al alloy, instead of Al-Sc alloy, making it sound like it's predominately Sc when it's not.)

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My opinion: a S&W revolver was originally spec-ed with steel as the material.

As such, unless the aluminum or scandium frame is significantly 'beefed up' from the original steel design, it's going to be compromised in longevity and strength.

I don't think S&W made Sc-Al alloy framed revolvers purposely weaker than their steel counterpoints.

I agree aluminum framed semi-autos can have wear issues (slide rails, for one) that steel frames don't, but revolvers are different.

Some members here have used & abused their Sc alloy framed revolvers. One gentleman chronicled his exploits with heavy 44 Magnum handloads in his 329PD. Other parts needed replacing but the Sc frame did not after thousands of rounds.

Christian Ed - S&W 329pd info

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I feel confident using my Sc-Al alloy framed revolvers with any load I want & it outlasting me.

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396NG - 357NG - 329NG - 325NG

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[steelslaver]

Some people po haw the Scandium alloy guns saying there is only a little bit of it in the aluminum. In metal alloys a little often goes a long ways.

Take steel for example. Plain old iron 0% carbon. Mild structural steel .18% Yea thats .18 of 1%. Tool steel like a Nicholson file has .95%

Chrome Moly steel (4140) only has 1% chrome and .2% molybdenum, It actual has more manganese (.75-1%) than Moly. Also has .4% carbon. Yet it has a large Tensile (40%) and some yield strength (10%)advantage over mild steel.

 

[7tenz]

Scandium is an Aluminum-Scandium alloy. The stuff is rare and expensive and few percent in the mix adds loads of strength to the aluminum.

Scandium isn't rare. It's "Rare-Earth". There's a difference. It is expensive.

 

[steelslaver]

From WIKI
"Scandium is a chemical element with symbol Sc and atomic number 21. A silvery-white metallic d-block element, it has historically been classified as a rare-earth element,[5] together with yttrium and the lanthanides. It was discovered in 1879 by spectral analysis of the minerals euxenite and gadolinite from Scandinavia.

Scandium is present in most of the deposits of rare-earth and uranium compounds, but it is extracted from these ores in only a few mines worldwide. Because of the low availability and the difficulties in the preparation of metallic scandium, which was first done in 1937, applications for scandium were not developed until the 1970s. The positive effects of scandium on aluminium alloys were discovered in the 1970s, and its use in such alloys remains its only major application. The global trade of scandium oxide is about 10 tonnes per year.

The properties of scandium compounds are intermediate between those of aluminium and yttrium. A diagonal relationship exists between the behavior of magnesium and scandium, just as there is between beryllium and aluminium. In the chemical compounds of the elements in group 3, the predominant oxidation state is +3."

As to value!

Most Scandium/Aluminum alloy is made using Scandium oxide.

Pure Scandium is worth way more than gold at about $270 a gram or $122,500 a pound. A pound of gold at $1500 troy is 1500x12 $18,000

 

[Rule3]

What load data are you referring to that says do not use in Aluminum??


Still do not understand the question?
200 grain bullets in a M327 , 357 Mag?
I shoot full 158 grain Mag loads in mine, what do 200 grain bullets do ?




The trace amount of scandium makes the gun stronger than Al


Strength of aluminum vs. scandium frames



Page 13


Which has to do with bullet pull due to light weight.



http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/s&w_revolver.pdf

 

[ArchAngelCD]

It's hard to comment on warnings you are telling us about without reading it for ourselves. It would help if you posted a link, maybe the warning isn't so reliable.

 

[Rule3]

It's hard to comment on warnings you are telling us about without reading it for ourselves. It would help if you posted a link, maybe the warning isn't so reliable.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Lol, I was talking about the OP telling us he read 200gr ammo isn't safe to shoot in an aluminum frame revolver lol...

Pretty placards though my friend!