Another LEOSA qualification…

[The Big D]

…in the books.

As everyone knows LEOSA quals are required every year; my latest was yesterday, August 28, at the Maryland Police and Correctional Training Commissions site in Sykesville, MD. That’s only 118.1 miles from my house, but it’s hard to get there in less than 2 hours even though it’s mostly via I-68 and I-70. Traffic congestion is always a factor and arrived with just one minute to spare. But I digress…

Scored 249/250 on “day” shoot; 149/150 on “night” course. (Facility has very nice outdoor ranges. “Night” shoot is conducted with shooters wearing dark ski goggle type eyeware.)

“Day” shoot is 50 rounds from 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards with strong hand, weak hand, and two hand shooting. There is barricade shooting from both standing and KNEELING positions. “Night” is similar but 30 rounds from 3, 7, and 15 yards.

There are reload scenarios throughout, and shooters are instructed to always scan/cover targets until told to holster. We are coached to use your “off” hand to help protect your throat/chest area in one hand shooting.

Classroom instruction including SAFETY, legal, and tactics precedes the range. A new component is video review of actual CCW shootings and discussions.

Used my 33 years old P7-M8. It performed flawlessly, as always. It has fired 7000 plus rounds by my conservative estimate. Never an unintentional misfire except sight dots occasionally exit. One rear site dot is currently a white toothpick.

Note: This was my 19th LEOSA qual. Will be retired for 20 years as of November 12. Yearly qualification was not held covid year.

Be safe.

 

[jimmyj]

This year's LEO qualification has been changed to point blank, 3, 7, and 15 yards. It is draw, move, and shoot. Semis only. With the limited time span and rounds revolvers are out. This encludes reloading.

 

[Riposte1]

Fortunately, in our state, any PD instructor, or CCDW Instructor can perform out LEOSA qual - unfortunately the card expires exactly a year after the date of the qual and it takes them a month to process so in our state it is only good for 11 months

OTOH our state CCDW is free for LEOSA certified people and last 5 years - which means it doesn't expire at the same time LEOSA is due - but sometimes it is close.

Riposte

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

"Day" shoot is 50 rounds from 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards with strong hand, weak hand, and two hand shooting. There is barricade shooting from both standing and KNEELING positions.

Used my 33 years old P7-M8.

Does your Agency have anyone 75+ years old shooting that Course?

Most of the retirees I know carry pocket pistols but for LEOSA they show up with a four inch revolver or a Beretta 92FS.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

This year's LEO qualification has been changed to point blank, 3, 7, and 15 yards. It is draw, move, and shoot. Semis only. With the limited time span and rounds revolvers are out. This encludes reloading.

At my Department we had numerous Courses and they are harder for Retirees than the Officers. Retirees have a Score to make and Officers just a Percentage.

Revolvers are out here too.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Fortunately, in our state, any PD instructor, or CCDW Instructor can perform out LEOSA qual - unfortunately the card expires exactly a year after the date of the qual and it takes them a month to process so in our state it is only good for 11 months

How we do it is, when you Retire your Credentials are endorsed for CCW and good for five years. But you have to have the Annual Qual Card too.

I still have a few old friends who retired in the 1980s and 1990s and their CCW are good indefinitely.

 

[The Big D]

Does your Agency have anyone 75+ years old shooting that Course?

Most of the retirees I know carry pocket pistols but for LEOSA they show up with a four inch revolver or a Beretta 92FS.

Yes, me! And many others.

Also, it is the STATE qualification course for active duty personnel. That’s per LEOSA.

You can qualify with a revolver OR semi-automatic. Once qualified you can carry any revolver or any any semi-auto pistol. Personally, I typically carry a Ruger LCP Max.

Be safe.

 

[WCCPHD]

North Carolina requires retirees to shoot the same course as all other officers. There are numerous courses that are approved, but most shoot the BLET (Basic Law Enforcement Training) course. Daytime out to 25 yards and dim light out to 15. Daytime course requires prone at 25 yards and kneeling at several distances less than 25. The dim light course requires kneeling also.

We also have to qualify with each individual weapon a retiree wants to carry by serial number (same as for full time LEO's). The qualification is good for 365 days from date of qualification. The full time requirements are one day and one dim light qualification with each weapon by serial number within the calendar year. Given this, a person can qualify on January 1 this year and be "good" (i.e. qualified) until December 31 of the next year, effectively one qualification in two years (minus one day).

NC also requires the same qualification for handguns regardless of the size, i.e. no special course for backup/undercover weapons.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

"Day" shoot is 50 rounds from 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards with strong hand, weak hand, and two hand shooting. There is barricade shooting from both standing and KNEELING positions.

So what about wheelchair bound retirees? Asking for a friend.

Also can a walker be used as the barricade?

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

North Carolina requires retirees to shoot the same course as all other officers. There are numerous courses that are approved, but most shoot the BLET (Basic Law Enforcement Training) course. Daytime out to 25 yards and dim light out to 15. Daytime course requires prone at 25 yards and kneeling at several distances less than 25. The dim light course requires kneeling also.

Do you score targets like PPC Scoring Rings or by percentage?

So what about handicap Retirees? Not all of us have aged well. Strokes, cancer, diabetes and such.

 

[The Big D]

So what about wheelchair bound retirees? Asking for a friend.

Also can a walker be used as the barricade?

They would not be able to complete the course.

Unassisted kneeling is a specific requirement, but one can use the barricade if they need a bit of help. Just like they could use a fixture in real life.

That said, there is no kneeling required in the Maryland CCW course. That course is one time only, too.


Be safe.

 

[Xfuzz]

Our oldest retiree last year was 90....
Unless it has changed 50 rounds at the 7,10 and 15 yards.
My bride was the only retired copper there with a revolver.
Her Smith 66 ND.
Active Female copper maybe 23-24 years of age asked if she could shoot it.
As she had never fired a revolver.

 

[WCCPHD]

Do you score targets like PPC Scoring Rings or by percentage?

So what about handicap Retirees? Not all of us have aged well. Strokes, cancer, diabetes and such.

It is based on a percentage. 70% is the state requirement. Agencies can set higher qualification scores if they want.

There is no provision (officially) for handicapped retirees. The NC DOJ (Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Division) is cracking down on firearms instructors, so I doubt any individual instructor would "fudge" a qualification course.

In addition to the range qualification, NC requires the following for all retired LEO's to carry under LEOSA.

"The retired officer must complete the current Commission-mandated In-Service Firearms Training & Qualification. Currently, the in-service program requires four (4) hours of annual training on safety, marksmanship fundamentals and use of force, plus qualification on the firing range with duty weapons. An additional two (2) hours of training will be required on the North Carolina laws of self defense and use of force by private citizens, detention of persons by private persons, and assistance to law enforcement officers by private persons."

Most local (city or county) agencies include the training regarding use of force by private citizens, etc because of officers carrying firearms outside their territorial jurisdiction.

I worked for a state agency for over 30 years and we did not include it in our training and the agency does not provide LEOSA training for retirees.

 

[oldcop71]

I did mine last month, scored 96/100. It's a 50 round state qualification course. I usually throw 2 from the 25 yard line. Used to score 100 on a regular basis but I'm over 70 now and not quite as good as I once was. I used a 6946 this time, gave some thought to using a revolver but said nah. Maybe next year.

 

[Riposte1]

How we do it is, when you Retire your Credentials are endorsed for CCW and good for five years. But you have to have the Annual Qual Card too.

I still have a few old friends who retired in the 1980s and 1990s and their CCW are good indefinitely.

Yeah, I think the feds have guidlines (one of which is annual qual) but they leave it to states to set the actual Course of Fire for the qual. - ours is not much, same as the State CCDW and the State Certified Peace Officer qual. 20 shots at 21 feet.

It is basically a "field sobriety test" .

Riposte

 

[Reloader Fred]

HR-218 doesn't specify what the qualification course of fire is, only that the retiree "qualify in the state of residence, or from the agency retired from". Different states and agencies have different courses of fire, some easy, some hard. I conduct the qualifications for our area four times a year in conjunction with the local PD, due to the fact that there are 215 retirees on my mailing list and I couldn't handle that many at one time. Our course of fire is a DPSST certified course for Oregon, but without the time constraints. We call it "old cop friendly", as we don't require kneeling, prone, etc. We do require 100% hits in the center zone of the target, which is approximately the size of an 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper. It's a target used by some agency in Southern Illinois that fits our needs.

I just conducted our latest quarterly qualification this past Tuesday, and had 24 retirees. They shoot 25 rounds, from 10 yards to 2 yards. I've had retirees in wheel chairs, on crutches and with walkers. To not allow those people to qualify would be criminal in my mind, as they're the ones who need to carry the most.

I've been told tales by some of the retirees that young rangemasters at their old departments don't like to qualify retirees, so they make it difficult for the older folks to be able to make the times, and get up and down off the ground on purpose. I hope Karma hits those young pups when they're our age. When you get too old to fight, you still need to be able to protect yourself. I've personally had people I've arrested try to find where I moved to after they got out of prison, so I understand the need to be able to continue to carry after leaving the job, and I've been retired for 30 years.

I'm in the process of handing over the qualifications to a couple of younger retirees. I'm 81, and who knows how much longer I'll be able to keep this stuff up. I'm still active, but I'm also a realist, and I know I'm facing my mortality. I just don't know my out date, so I'll continue to do what I'm doing as long as I'm able.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[VinnieL59]

North Carolina requires retirees to shoot the same course as all other officers. There are numerous courses that are approved, but most shoot the BLET (Basic Law Enforcement Training) course. Daytime out to 25 yards and dim light out to 15. Daytime course requires prone at 25 yards and kneeling at several distances less than 25. The dim light course requires kneeling also.

We also have to qualify with each individual weapon a retiree wants to carry by serial number (same as for full time LEO's). The qualification is good for 365 days from date of qualification. The full time requirements are one day and one dim light qualification with each weapon by serial number within the calendar year. Given this, a person can qualify on January 1 this year and be "good" (i.e. qualified) until December 31 of the next year, effectively one qualification in two years (minus one day).

NC also requires the same qualification for handguns regardless of the size, i.e. no special course for backup/undercover weapons.

I maintain that retired LEOs courses should concentrate on point blank to 15 yards at the most. If a retiree has to shoot someone beyond that distance, it more than likely is NOT going to be to protect himself, (self defense) and that's what the idea was for LEO retirees.

 

[hardhead]

…in the books.

As everyone knows LEOSA quals are required every year; my latest was yesterday, August 28, at the Maryland Police and Correctional Training Commissions site in Sykesville, MD. That's only 118.1 miles from my house, but it's hard to get there in less than 2 hours even though it's mostly via I-68 and I-70. Traffic congestion is always a factor and arrived with just one minute to spare. But I digress…

Scored 249/250 on "day" shoot; 149/150 on "night" course. (Facility has very nice outdoor ranges. "Night" shoot is conducted with shooters wearing dark ski goggle type eyeware.)

"Day" shoot is 50 rounds from 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards with strong hand, weak hand, and two hand shooting. There is barricade shooting from both standing and KNEELING positions. "Night" is similar but 30 rounds from 3, 7, and 15 yards.

There are reload scenarios throughout, and shooters are instructed to always scan/cover targets until told to holster. We are coached to use your "off" hand to help protect your throat/chest area in one hand shooting.

Classroom instruction including SAFETY, legal, and tactics precedes the range. A new component is video review of actual CCW shootings and discussions.

Used my 33 years old P7-M8. It performed flawlessly, as always. It has fired 7000 plus rounds by my conservative estimate. Never an unintentional misfire except sight dots occasionally exit. One rear site dot is currently a white toothpick.

Note: This was my 19th LEOSA qual. Will be retired for 20 years as of November 12. Yearly qualification was not held covid year.

Be safe.

I'm assuming we are talking about HR 218 qualification. So in many states, a civilian can walk into a gun store, buy a gun, and immediately start carrying it; no testing or weapon qualification is required. In other states, a civilian can buy a gun, go to the county Sheriff's office, fill out an application, pay some money, and then receive a CCW license with no testing or weapon qualification required. But retired, and thoroughly experienced LE Officers, who have carried and qualified with a firearm all of their lives, are required by HR 218 to qualify each year. This makes no sense.

 

[walkin' trails]

Retirees in Kansas shoot the KS CPOST course. It's 50 rounds with distances from an yars and a half all the way back to the 25. It's also the course mandated for actively employed LEOs. Score to pass is 70 percent. There are no reload or jam clearing stages. There is some lateral movement and barricades at the 25, standing and kneeling, supported. It's definitely not designed with a five shot in mind, but I scored 100 percent on my last qual with a 640 .38 Special as well as my P365. Kansas allows LEOSA qualifiers two handguns, but this year stopped putting the specifics of the guns used, instead opting for generic handgun qualification pass. In the application, they want make, model, and caliber, but no serial numbers. I am in my early 60s and don't have any problems with LE qualification courses, but also agree that may change. I've been to some sessions where everyone else was about my age and had no issues, and some where there were some guys who were 70 plus and had problems. The biggest one is that the ones who retired in the revolver era who now have a semi auto weren't always trained as well to begin with and have problems with basic handling. Then there are a few, regardless of age, who discover the post they have now doesn't work. But nevertheless, I still enjoy getting out and shooting, and the LEOSA is more for the wrong leaning states who make it even harder for their own states law abiding citizens to carry.

 

[326MOD10]

I'm assuming we are talking about HR 218 qualification. So in many states, a civilian can walk into a gun store, buy a gun, and immediately start carrying it; no testing or weapon qualification is required. In other states, a civilian can buy a gun, go to the county Sheriff's office, fill out an application, pay some money, and then receive a CCW license with no testing or weapon qualification required. But retired, and thoroughly experienced LE Officers, who have carried and qualified with a firearm all of their lives, are required by HR 218 to qualify each year. This makes no sense.

You are not required to do HR218.

Only if you want to carry under that law, which allows CC nationwide, with some restrictions.

You can chose to just do a state CCW or nothing at all

I personally do HR218 and my states CCW.

CCW gives some rights LEOSA doesn't at this time.

 

[Lt.Donn]

North Carolina requires retirees to shoot the same course as all other officers. There are numerous courses that are approved, but most shoot the BLET (Basic Law Enforcement Training) course. Daytime out to 25 yards and dim light out to 15. Daytime course requires prone at 25 yards and kneeling at several distances less than 25. The dim light course requires kneeling also.

We also have to qualify with each individual weapon a retiree wants to carry by serial number (same as for full time LEO's). The qualification is good for 365 days from date of qualification. The full time requirements are one day and one dim light qualification with each weapon by serial number within the calendar year. Given this, a person can qualify on January 1 this year and be "good" (i.e. qualified) until December 31 of the next year, effectively one qualification in two years (minus one day).

NC also requires the same qualification for handguns regardless of the size, i.e. no special course for backup/undercover weapons.

Yikes...and here I thought the rules in NM were tough...sheesh, it takes a LOT to outdo a dem stronghold like NM...

 

[Doug M.]

Argh. Pedantic lawyer issue. There is no longer anything valid about calling this HR218; that label went away once the statute was enacted. For active officers, the correct citation is 18USC 926(b); for retirees, 18 USC 926(c). No other citation is valid.

The course here is pretty easy, although doing it 3 months after breaking my shoulder and having surgery was not as fun as I would have liked (holster draw w/my M66 was ugly). I do it with at least 2 platforms (striker fired and revolver) and sometimes 3 (cocked and locked 1911 type format, usually with my KZ 9) and try to do it twice a year. They use the CJTC off duty/BUG course and I usually do pretty well.

 

[WCCPHD]

Yikes...and here I thought the rules in NM were tough...sheesh, it takes a LOT to outdo a dem stronghold like NM...

In NC the rules are made by the NC Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission and administered by the Dept of Justice. NC has had extremely left leaning Attorney's General since 2000. The last three were/are anti-law enforcement and anti-gun. They put as many roadblocks up as possible.

 

[WCCPHD]

Argh. Pedantic lawyer issue. There is no longer anything valid about calling this HR218; that label went away once the statute was enacted. For active officers, the correct citation is 18USC 926(b); for retirees, 18 USC 926(c). No other citation is valid.

The course here is pretty easy, although doing it 3 months after breaking my shoulder and having surgery was not as fun as I would have liked (holster draw w/my M66 was ugly). I do it with at least 2 platforms (striker fired and revolver) and sometimes 3 (cocked and locked 1911 type format, usually with my KZ 9) and try to do it twice a year. They use the CJTC off duty/BUG course and I usually do pretty well.

Must be nice to have a separate off duty and backup gun course of fire. In NC its the same for a duty weapon or a 2 inch barrel Seecamp. There was an effort to drop the 25 yard stage last year. It died an ugly death due to a few people who want to show how great they are at shooting.

 

[Lt.Donn]

In NC the rules are made by the NC Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission and administered by the Dept of Justice. NC has had extremely left leaning Attorney's General since 2000. The last three were/are anti-law enforcement and anti-gun. They put as many roadblocks up as possible.

That sucks out loud...move to Georgia...we are just 15 minutes from NC in my area

 

[WCCPHD]

That sucks out loud...move to Georgia...we are just 15 minutes from NC in my area

Family has been here since 1795 so I have no intention of moving.

 

[Riposte1]

I maintain that retired LEOs courses should concentrate on point blank to 15 yards at the most. If a retiree has to shoot someone beyond that distance, it more than likely is NOT going to be to protect himself, (self defense) and that's what the idea was for LEO retirees.

I don't doubt that is true, but no one can predict how far he will have to shoot - I will admit, long range problems of self defense at ranges even longer than 10 yards are unusual. Still I know of officers and regular citizens saving officers under attak, having to shoot and hit at 70, 91, 102 and "allegedly" 169 "yards" ( I suspect that one was actually 169 feet )

Some of my .45s are zeored at 75 yards (not all of them) and they have a point blank range of 100 yards (PBR is how far you can shoot without the bullet rising or dropping beyond a certain arbitray distance - for an 8" aiming zone that is 4 inches higher or lower than the aiming point).

Mind you, while I might be carrying one, they are zeroed that way for hunting not defense, but it works pretty good either way - I always try to include 100 yard handgun targets in my weekly exercises, just to know I can do it.

Pehaps I am weird, but if so I know a lot of weird people.

Should pistol quals require such shots - I don't think so. I was sort of disapointed when they dropped 50 yard targets from the qual, and then later 25 yards - if only 2 or 4 shots out of 24 or 25.

Just Ramblin' - nobody asks me any more

Riposte

 

[StuN25]

HR-218 doesn't specify what the qualification course of fire is, only that the retiree "qualify in the state of residence, or from the agency retired from". Different states and agencies have different courses of fire, some easy, some hard. I conduct the qualifications for our area four times a year in conjunction with the local PD, due to the fact that there are 215 retirees on my mailing list and I couldn't handle that many at one time. Our course of fire is a DPSST certified course for Oregon, but without the time constraints. We call it "old cop friendly", as we don't require kneeling, prone, etc. We do require 100% hits in the center zone of the target, which is approximately the size of an 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper. It's a target used by some agency in Southern Illinois that fits our needs.

I just conducted our latest quarterly qualification this past Tuesday, and had 24 retirees. They shoot 25 rounds, from 10 yards to 2 yards. I've had retirees in wheel chairs, on crutches and with walkers. To not allow those people to qualify would be criminal in my mind, as they're the ones who need to carry the most.

I've been told tales by some of the retirees that young rangemasters at their old departments don't like to qualify retirees, so they make it difficult for the older folks to be able to make the times, and get up and down off the ground on purpose. I hope Karma hits those young pups when they're our age. When you get too old to fight, you still need to be able to protect yourself. I've personally had people I've arrested try to find where I moved to after they got out of prison, so I understand the need to be able to continue to carry after leaving the job, and I've been retired for 30 years.

I'm in the process of handing over the qualifications to a couple of younger retirees. I'm 81, and who knows how much longer I'll be able to keep this stuff up. I'm still active, but I'm also a realist, and I know I'm facing my mortality. I just don't know my out date, so I'll continue to do what I'm doing as long as I'm able.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Every time I've qual'd at PSTC Clackamas as a retiree it was administered by a retired PPB sergeant who runs the range there and the kneeling position behind cover at 10yds was mandatory, though changing location to fire each shot was not. For guys like me (75yrs old) with bad knees they put down rubber mats as an accommodation but required kneeling since that's part of the old DPSST PQC1. I was told that PQC1 in the academy was changed some years back. They were generous but not ridiculous with the time limit for each stage.

Aside from my first career (retired after 26yrs as a CA LEO and relocated to OR) my second was as a non-sworn firearms instructor for both PSTC, and the DPSST academy when they were at WOU and using the old Camp Adair range and then later at the Aumsville Highway campus in Salem. I retired from both of those after 15yrs and because of my work affiliation with both organizations I'd hoped to be able to LEOSA qual standing behind cover at 10yds but was told that was a "no go". No complaints, as I've always shot the 100% (25/25) required.

 

[Reloader Fred]

Every time I've qual'd at PSTC Clackamas as a retiree it was administered by a retired PPB sergeant who runs the range there and the kneeling position behind cover at 10yds was mandatory, though changing location to fire each shot was not. For guys like me (75yrs old) with bad knees they put down rubber mats as an accommodation but required kneeling since that's part of the old DPSST PQC1. I was told that PQC1 in the academy was changed some years back. They were generous but not ridiculous with the time limit for each stage.

Aside from my first career (retired after 26yrs as a CA LEO and relocated to OR) my second was as a non-sworn firearms instructor for both PSTC, and the DPSST academy when they were at WOU and using the old Camp Adair range and then later at the Aumsville Highway campus in Salem. I retired from both of those after 15yrs and because of my work affiliation with both organizations I'd hoped to be able to LEOSA qual standing behind cover at 10yds but was told that was a "no go". No complaints, as I've always shot the 100% (25/25) required.

I've started getting a lot of retirees from all over the state lately. Part of that is because we're listed on the OSP retiree newsletter, and partly because we're "old guy friendly". Being on the coast, we're really on the way to nowhere, so they have to want to drive here, but I get retirees from the Willamette Valley, Salem, Bend, La Pine, Medford, Grants Pass and all up and down the coast. The OSP retirees tell me that even though they can qualify with their regular OSP range officers, they'd rather drive to our qualifications. It helps that we've built covered shooting bays for inclement weather, too.

Along with accuracy, which can vary greatly from person to person, we're watching for safe gun handling. Some of these guys and gals no longer handle firearms on a regular basis, so reminding them of muzzle control and good gun handling is part of what we do. I run either 6 or 8 at a time, depending on how many show up, and have a couple of retirees who help manage the line. Oregon requires a DPSST range officer sign the cards, which we issue onsite. One of the retirees from the local PD maintains his DPSST certification, and he signs the cards. Oregon DPSST doesn't recognize my firearms training certification from the FBI Academy at Quantico, Va., or my lifetime teaching credential for firearms training from the CA Community College system. Go figure.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[biku324]

Yikes...and here I thought the rules in NM were tough...sheesh, it takes a LOT to outdo a dem stronghold like NM...

I only do the NM CCL - minimal cost and simple requirements, easy availability.