Another progressive reloader question

[Bkreutz]

So the gist of my question was how much I really need auto feeders. Sounds like the bullet feeders are more trouble than they are worth for my application. If I use a shell feeder, than that would need tinkering with every caliber change over, and use one of the five die slots. Right now I'm looking at reloading for bulk on .45 auto, .38 sp, and .204 Ruger. I'll likely do runs of each, 1000 rnds or so, then lay off that rnd until I get low. With no auto shell feeder, I'm looking at moving my left arm twice per evolution (insert a shell, insert a bullet) of the right hand lever. With the shell loader, once with the left arm per evolution. The other consideration is using up a die space on the 5 station models. If reloading handgun ammo, what would be the standard die configuration? I would like to include a powder check die in that.

The case feeder does not take up one of the die slots, it's actually outside of the die area (the case is pushed into position one which is the decap/size die). When I got my 650 I didn't get the auto case feeder on purpose so my wife would have something to get me for birthday/Christmas (after 37 years you run out of ideas ). The 650 comes standard with the feeder tube for the cases, the electric sorter and feeder is optional. The difference is that with just the tube, you have to fill it with cases (around 22) and then remember to fill it up before you run out. I got pretty good but sometimes forgot (not a real problem, without a case, a primer falls into the catch tray and no powder is dropped). With the optional feeder, I just dump around 400 cases in the hopper and load away. I've attached a picture of the 650 without the electric case feeder. I have to admit that I do prefer the electric feeder though.

 

[Neumann]

I can load 400/hr, .45 ACP with my Dillon 550B. With case prep (trim, chamfer and swage) that drops to about 100/hour including external time. It's no big deal to set cases and bullets by hand. That's about four trips to the range for me. If you shoot a lot, then the 1050 might be right for you. IMO, the 650 offers one extra station, which can be used for a fill failsafe, or something else.

Based on my experience in packaging, part feeders take a lot of setup and debugging time. They work great until they don't. One inverted case (or bullet), or a 9mm nested inside a .40, and you shut down until the press can be cleared and cleaned.

You develop a rhythm for manual feeding. I ALWAYS index immediately after each stroke, so if I drop a case or bullet, there's less chance of a double drop on resuming. I insert the new case with my right hand, start the bullet with my left - working from trays near the press.

If you must stop, run out all the stations and leave the press empty. On resuming after a delay of 10 minutes or more, check one or two drops before proceeding (powder tends to settle in the measure).

With the Dillon, all of the dies are set in one tool block, so their settings are locked in. For another $80 or so, a quick-change kit includes a tool head stand and a powder hopper/measure.

Hornady LNL dies are easy to change, but they are separate, not in a removable tool block. The shells are retained in the shell plate with a long spring, which can break and launch itself into a black hole. Dillon retains shells with removable pins. The only loose spring on the Dillon is the primer feed return.

The primer feed is simple and reliable. However you have to reload the drop tube every 100 rounds or so. The drop tube is reloaded using a pickup tube, which can be loaded ahead of time (spares are inexpensive). I think of it as a 5 minute break, but there is a ($$) automatic pickup tube filler, instead of one at a time from a flip plate.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I bought a 450 Dillion in 1984, over the years I upgraded with a non Dillion kit. As soon as Dillion came out with the auto priming and case mouth powder drop systems I jerked the un-brand stuff of my press. After 25 or so years I upgraded the frame and basically have a 550b press. I installed a case feeder. I found that a case feeder makes loading easier but not any faster, and is only for pistol cases. Make sure you have 6-10 primer tubes of each size. Fill as many as you want to load and go to town. I have the bullet tray, but a home made one will be just fine! The rack for the tools is nice but you can get by without it very easily. I have about 10 tool heads and 4 powder drops, I load cartridges in a specific order. 45 Colt then 44-40WCF, Same shell plate and with 2 different powders I don't change the measure settings. Then I go to 44 Mag then 44 Special then 44 Russian, I still haven't had to change shell plates. Then I can switch big time, but usually to 45ACP. At this point I used to go to Rifle cases like 308, 30-06, and the Mausers. Next would be Change the primer system to small and do 9mm then the 223 family ( my old shell holder was the same, I don't know if the newer ones work that way) and with 30 Mauser and I could do 30 Luger, but never had the need. Finally I would do 38's and 357's. Loading small lots of 200 or less was done on turret presses. Once in a while an additional round would be inserted into the mix (mostly 45-70 or 50 AE when on the 44-45 shell plate) but those usually were done in smaller batches. Back in the 80's I loaded a batch of 20,000-223's that took over a month and there were several 9mm Luger batches over 5000. I looked into having a bullet feed that sized a cast bullet then fed it, but it was beyond my engineering abilities. I hope this gives you some more ideas on how to best use your press.

I also own a Hornady L-N-L AP I bought used, It is not well engineered in my opinion. That is around the 4th or 5th generation of their progressive, and problems that existed in 1st (07) and 2nd generation (007) designs are still happening. RCBS has some good and bad progressive designs but discontinue them quickly, I don't know what support you get!

Have fun loading! Ivan

 

[Twoboxer]

So the gist of my question was how much I really need auto feeders. In the extreme, with 550, 650, or LnL AP you really don't need them at all. With the 650 and AP you can easily add them later. With the 550 they make less sense, and with the bullet feeder you lose a station.
Sounds like the bullet feeders are more trouble than they are worth for my application. Bullet feeders are more sensitive, having somewhat the same adjustment/changeover issues as case feeders, plus your case belling has to be very good or the bullet falls off.
If I use a shell feeder, than that would need tinkering with every caliber change over, and use one of the five die slots. The "caliber changes" require parts changes for large pistol, small pistol, large rifle, small rifle - IOW, some caliber changes MAY not require changeover, or may also need smaller part changes or benefit from adjustment. Case feeders (on the 650 and LnL AP) do not take up a station.
Right now I'm looking at reloading for bulk on .45 auto, .38 sp, and .204 Ruger. I'll likely do runs of each, 1000 rnds or so, then lay off that rnd until I get low. With no auto shell feeder, I'm looking at moving my left arm twice per evolution (insert a shell, insert a bullet) of the right hand lever. With the shell loader, once with the left arm per evolution. This is correct for the Hornady, and is why the case feeder is highly beneficial. The 650 runs differently - check a video to see. I believe the right hand seats the bullet.
The other consideration is using up a die space on the 5 station models. This is much more of an issue on 4-hole presses, ie the 550.
If reloading handgun ammo, what would be the standard die configuration? I would like to include a powder check die in that.On the Hornady, 1=Deprime/size, 2=case bell/powder drop, 3=powder check die, 4=seating, 5=crimp/bell closure. Note that your seating die can also crimp, but most of us prefer to separate the two to simplify adjustments and deal with case length variations. With the 550, adding a powder check die requires you to seat/crimp together, and once done eliminates the possibility of a bulet feeder.

Specific answers above in red.

The setup and use of a progressive for many rifle rounds may differ. Cases that need "case prep" (trimming, etc) are often decapped and/or resized, prepped, then cleaned. They return to the progressive for the rest of the operations. Since priming occurs BETWEEN stations 1 and 2 (powder), you cannot easily make use of the extra hole open at this stage.

OTOH, some folks who know their rifle cases will not exceed max length after prep run them just like pistol rounds.

Long, but hope this helps.

 

[fredj338]

I agree with this. My rank would be the 650 is the best, followed by the LNL-AP then finally the manually indexed 4-hole 550.

Time is money and with a young family I don't get a lot of time to spend on my hobbies. The Dillon 650 with case feeder is fast enough for my purposes. I had a LNL-AP for a few years and the 650 is just a better press (with the pricetag to match although.)

Chris

Price them equipped the same, the 650 is about $75 more. Consider how much better the feeder & priming system is, well worth it. Hate reloading after a year, you'll get more for the dillon any other press. I call it a wash.

 

[fredj338]

Specific answers above in red.

The setup and use of a progressive for many rifle rounds may differ. Cases that need "case prep" (trimming, etc) are often decapped and/or resized, prepped, then cleaned. They return to the progressive for the rest of the operations. Since priming occurs BETWEEN stations 1 and 2 (powder), you cannot easily make use of the extra hole open at this stage.

OTOH, some folks who know their rifle cases will not exceed max length after prep run them just like pistol rounds.

Long, but hope this helps.

I load 223 on my 550. I prep new/once fired brass then load it on the press. I use the RCBS x die, so only have to prep brass once. Stn 3 is a powder check, I seat & if I crimp, rare, I do it in one step @ 4.

 

[Twoboxer]

I load 223 on my 550. I prep new/once fired brass then load it on the press. I use the RCBS x die, so only have to prep brass once. Stn 3 is a powder check, I seat & if I crimp, rare, I do it in one step @ 4.

Yup, that's one of the ways you can load rifle like pistol I thought that was a little TMI for the OP.

 

[THEWELSHM]

I can load 400/hr, .45 ACP with my Dillon 550B. With case prep (trim, chamfer and swage) that drops to about 100/hour including external time. It's no big deal to set cases and bullets by hand. That's about four trips to the range for me. If you shoot a lot, then the 1050 might be right for you. IMO, the 650 offers one extra station, which can be used for a fill failsafe, or something else.

Based on my experience in packaging, part feeders take a lot of setup and debugging time. They work great until they don't. One inverted case (or bullet), or a 9mm nested inside a .40, and you shut down until the press can be cleared and cleaned.

You develop a rhythm for manual feeding. I ALWAYS index immediately after each stroke, so if I drop a case or bullet, there's less chance of a double drop on resuming. I insert the new case with my right hand, start the bullet with my left - working from trays near the press.

If you must stop, run out all the stations and leave the press empty. On resuming after a delay of 10 minutes or more, check one or two drops before proceeding (powder tends to settle in the measure).

With the Dillon, all of the dies are set in one tool block, so their settings are locked in. For another $80 or so, a quick-change kit includes a tool head stand and a powder hopper/measure.

Hornady LNL dies are easy to change, but they are separate, not in a removable tool block. The shells are retained in the shell plate with a long spring, which can break and launch itself into a black hole. Dillon retains shells with removable pins. The only loose spring on the Dillon is the primer feed return.

The primer feed is simple and reliable. However you have to reload the drop tube every 100 rounds or so. The drop tube is reloaded using a pickup tube, which can be loaded ahead of time (spares are inexpensive). I think of it as a 5 minute break, but there is a ($$) automatic pickup tube filler, instead of one at a time from a flip plate.

The spring on the Hornady is a 2 minute fix at best. The system functions great.


thewelshm

 

[THEWELSHM]

For your reading pleasure


thewelshm

 

[smokindog]

When I was making this decision about 18 months ago, I found the document above comparing Lee/Hornady/Dillon to be very helpful. There are some good threads here and they link to a lot of good videos.

I chose the Hornady LNL AP without any of the auto case/bullet options.

Here is a good deal right now, $390 TTL shipped to your door!!!!
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/00005095100/Lock-N-Load_AP_Progressive_Press_

Good luck.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/345100-need-info-hornady-lnl-ap.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/324579-hornady-lnl-ap-press-setup-hints-tricks.html

 

[smokindog]

Forgot to mention, the 500 bullet rebate is available too!

http://www.hornady.com/promotions/get-loaded-2014

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reload...anctuary-will-hopefully-finished-weekend.html

When I was making this decision about 18 months ago, I found the document above comparing Lee/Hornady/Dillon to be very helpful. There are some good threads here and they link to a lot of good videos.

I chose the Hornady LNL AP without any of the auto case/bullet options.

Here is a good deal right now, $390 TTL shipped to your door!!!!
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/00005095100/Lock-N-Load_AP_Progressive_Press_

Good luck.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/345100-need-info-hornady-lnl-ap.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/324579-hornady-lnl-ap-press-setup-hints-tricks.html

 

[fredj338]

The 500 "free" bullets is kind of a joke. You get a limited choice, not really what you want. It's a nice touch, but it's not getting me to buy a lesser press.
If you want a case feeder, buy the 650. If you never want one the LNL is more user friendly, but he priming system & bushings are still an issue for me.

 

[m657]

I started with a 450 progressive, the upgraded when available and ran it for about 20 years. Then went to the 650 with the bells & whistles.

You gotta learn how to operate the 650, and it runs fine. It requires understanding now & then needing a little loving too. You can fight it & be unhappy, or learn what it needs & it will reward you with all the ammo you can use.

Case feeder is essential with the 650 or you're wasting your time & $.

I'd rather be shooting than reloading, and the 650 treats me right.

Besides the design of the machine, the actual CUSTOMER SUPPORT is a great model for how .gov should work.

I just learned a NO COST trick from the Dillon rep last week, and haven't had an upside down 9mm case in the 1000+ rounds I've run since then.

For me, the annoying parts of the 650 protocol, means I haven't carefully evaluated what functional anomaly needs attention.

Running a 650 is like operating a piece of equipment or playing an instrument; once you learn the tricks it ain't hard to do.

 

[Neumann]

I read the comparison between the Dillon 650, Hornady and Lee progressive loaders. Very informative!

Once you set the dies in the Dillon block, they stay set. No matter how careful you are, lock nuts slip, and if you remove and replace dies, you have to check their setting each time. The block itself is not expensive ($15), and can be stored on a shelf if you remove the powder hopper (two cap screws). If you leave the hopper in place, the die block fits on a stand ($25), together with the shell plate and retaining pins.

The hardest station to set up on the Dillon is the powder funnel, which serves to expand and bell the case. The powder funnel comes with the caliber change kit. I purchase an extra powder die ($10), and leave it, adjusted, on the tool block. You can remove or attach the powder measure without affecting the die setting.

Dillon dies are expensive, nearly twice as much as a comparable RCBS set. However, they are optimized for use on a progressive press - tapered lead in the resizer, separate seating and crimping dies. The post in the resizing die can be used to force out a stuck case (which usually results in a broken rim). The seating die can be easily disassembled for cleaning, without changing the setting or removing the die from the block. You can also remove the decapping post completely, and drive a case out with a pin punch and hammer

The powder adjustment is just an hex head screw, with no calibrations. Someone makes a micrometer head to replace the screw. If you count turns and uses a divided difference approach (q.v., binary search), you can set up in 10 drops or less. For calibers I load a lot, I buy the complete setup for that caliber, which cuts changeover time (not including primers) to about 5 minutes.

Dillon has a special powder die for use with a rotary measure, like the RCBS, Hornady or Lyman. You have to operate it by hand, but it might be worth while with some problematic powders. I have a micrometer head on my RCBS measure, which makes it easy to set up and adjust.

 

[novalty]

Neumann, that is a very good post. Just wanted to mention that Dillon Dies are not nearly twice as expensive as RCBS, as RCBS dies are now priced around $50/set and Dillons are around $65.

 

[Moonman]

The Dillon Dies ability to be disassembled and cleaned by means of pulling a pin will be of less value in the future.

Many people are now POWDER COATING or HI-TEK coating projectiles,

thus leaving behind older WAXY/MESSY lubes.

More commercial casters are also changing over to coated rather than waxy lube formulas.

Clean equipment and a clean you to go along with clean barrels.

 

[smokindog]

OP,

IMHO you've been given a lot of good advice and opinions on what's available. Only reason I decided to jump in again is the thread is showing hints of "blue wash" (some of you in the high tech world may get the other meaning here, equally appropriate).

I'm not bashing any vendor by saying that, just pointing out that I noticed a large lean to blue with all these smart and helpful folks

It was at this point in my decision process that I took all the input, did more independent research (that white paper was a major help to me), looked at what people around me and around the area had in stock so I could physically review the equipment, did some online window shopping for plates/dies/accessories, took a class, and then made a plus/minus sheet.

I'll bet that once you do that, set a price point, and then pick a press, you'll be happy, regardless what color it is. BTW - Hornady customer support is outstanding too FORGOT to add an answer to a Q you posed, you can add either the case or bullet feeder independently now or in the future.

PS - don't know why one poster said the free bullets weren't the right type because they sent me exactly what I wanted and I also got more with each die set and I most certainly did NOT get a lesser press! That was the first clue to me that the thread was leaning a bit! It also wasn't a major piece of my decision but it was a nice bonus. BTW, I've got everything for my LNL to load 9, 40, 45, 45C, and .223. I'm actually considering a second LNL at that price in the link I added early. I think it may expire today but not sure!

Best of luck. I'm happy with MY choice and it was a thread very similar to this one that helped me in my decision.

I'm getting ready to move forward fm single stage reloading rifle ammo as needed, to getting into loading pistol ammo now that I can't get all the free .45 I could shoot anymore. I'm looking at getting a progressive loader, and have read through the sticky here various times. I still have a few unanswered questions though.
For instance, I see that some of the nicer reloaders have both auto shell, and auto bullet feeders with variations on that theme.
The Dillon offers the option of having an auto SHELL loader with the bullets placed by hand; the RCBS offers no auto shell loader that I can see, but for the cost of the Dillon you can get the RCBS with an auto bullet feeder (not for cast bullets though). Hornady offers their unit with both.
So what is really needed on this front? I tend to think if I were to only have one or the other, that the auto shell feeder would be more convenient since inserting the brass into the holder can be a little slower than setting the bullet on top of the brass.

 

[AveragEd]

Strictly due to brand loyalty, my first choice actually was not a Dillon. With the exception of a few die sets, I have used nothing but RCBS equipment for over 40 years and I originally wanted one of their Pro2000 loaders. But a call to my contact at ATK (RCBS' parent company) to place an order resulted in learning that they were so loaded with backorders for much more popular items that any production of that loader probably would not take place for nine months - and that was his optimistic estimate.

The 650 was my very close second choice and was readily available so I bought it and in retrospect, am glad I did.

Ed

 

[B's640]

Ed you brought up the RCBS Pro 2000, which is timely because I was getting ready to ask about that one since no one has posted anything in this thread about it. I use RCBS equpt currently, and am very courious to hear from anyone who has one and have used the others as well for their thoughts. Looks like it has a simple die set exchange system similar to Dillon, and is a manual index machine. The primer system looks very simple, does that version require anything special when changing out primer size other than use a different size strip?
The price is higher than the Hornady LNL though.

 

[fredj338]

OP,

IMHO you've been given a lot of good advice and opinions on what's available. Only reason I decided to jump in again is the thread is showing hints of "blue wash" (some of you in the high tech world may get the other meaning here, equally appropriate).

I'm not bashing any vendor by saying that, just pointing out that I noticed a large lean to blue with all these smart and helpful folks

I'll bet that once you do that, set a price point, and then pick a press, you'll be happy, regardless what color it is. BTW - Hornady customer support is outstanding too FORGOT to add an answer to a Q you posed, you can add either the case or bullet feeder independently now or in the future.

PS - don't know why one poster said the free bullets weren't the right type because they sent me exactly what I wanted and I also got more with each die set and I most certainly did NOT get a lesser press! That was the first clue to me that the thread was leaning a bit! It also wasn't a major piece of my decision but it was a nice bonus. BTW, I've got everything for my LNL to load 9, 40, 45, 45C, and .223. I'm actually considering a second LNL at that price in the link I added early. I think it may expire today but not sure!

Best of luck. I'm happy with MY choice and it was a thread very similar to this one that helped me in my decision.

Dillon is the benchmark the other manuf shoot for. It's the reason many go Dillon, they just work, often right out of the box. Having run all the progressives but the RCBS, it's easy to see strengths & weaknesses.
As to hornady's free bullets, maybe they have changed their policy, but you used to get a list to choose from. Still, 500 bullets is not getting me to buy a lesser press, well maybe 500 50bmg Amax, yeah not gonna happen. The cost of the 650 & LNL, sim equipped, is about $75. Over just a year, what, $6/m? The LNL is a good press, especially w/o case feeder. I agree, the 650 w/o feeder is no faster than a 550, been there done that.
IMO, far too many guys/gals agonize over the initial cost of equip. If you are in It for the next 20yrs, then buying top end gear means never replacing it, ever. High end gear means less time tweaking & more time reloading & shooting. I would buy a 1050 if I thought it would work for me, still about $6/month over 20yrs? Regardless of what you buy, make sure it works for you. For many of us, time is still valuable. A good progressive solves the time excuse for not reloading.