Any update on Appleseed ban?

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captmike1

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Are there any updates on the Appleseed 15-22 ban due to out of battery discharge and firearm going full auto? I have a performance center model and would love to use it at an Appleseed. Thanks in advance.
 
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As far as I am aware......NO, nothing.

Nothing from them, moreover nothing from S&W has ever materialised regarding any of the issues the OOB or the full auto or the ban. As Appleseed stated they were working with S&W to investigate the firearms in question, seems strange that 8 months later no news or findings have ever been presented.

I would assume the ban is still in place as they were banned pending further investigation. Since no such investigation ever seems to have taken place.

You'd probably be better off contacting Appleseed and getting accurate info regarding the ban 'straight from the horse's mouth' so to speak.

Appleseed would suggest you swap your PC model for a Ruger 10/22 ;)
 
They are still not allowed and the local chapter thinks its ridiculous as they have had to turn a lot of shooters away since its been in place.

As one member told me, "you never know when corporate will show up"

sad.........
 
I've had my eye on getting a 15-22 for some time now and was finally able to snag one up in a trade a couple weeks ago. Prior to that, I did as much research on the OOB issue as I could based on what was out there. I also contacted S&W about it in hopes they'd tell me it was all good and nothing to worry about. Part of my concern was seeing an owner online that had posted pics of his 15-22 Sport with significant damage caused by OOB. That was on a factory new rifle just a couple weeks ago. The response I received from S&W did very little to ease my nerves about purchasing the rifle known by so many to have safety issues. In their own words

"This is not a common problem with this firearm and any firearm purchased new has a lifetime warranty to the original owner so that if you were to experience any problems with your firearm during its life you can send it back to the factory for evaluation under your warranty and potential repairs. If you have any other questions please feel free to contact us Thank you and Have a Great Day!"
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From what I understand the OOB issue dates back several years and to know that current models coming new out of the factory are still experiencing the issue is unsettling. To say that this is "not a common problem" is undeniably false and exudes a sense of denial. Until S&W recognizes that their platform is indeed prone to this issue, I doubt Appleseed will relax their stance on the issue and nobody can really blame them for it.
 
Logman78 said:
From what I understand the OOB issue dates back several years and to know that current models coming new out of the factory are still experiencing the issue is unsettling. To say that this is "not a common problem" is undeniably false and exudes a sense of denial. Until S&W recognizes that their platform is indeed prone to this issue, I doubt Appleseed will relax their stance on the issue and nobody can really blame them for it.
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I've seen a few references to this and I believe one other issue. Certainly no fanboy of S&W I must ask what makes this OOB experience a common problem? In other words, I guess I'd need to see rifles sold / discharged numbers / OOBs, etc. As a side note, while researching the OOB issue moments ago, I ran across one of those lawyer ads, not all that different from those on tv. The lawyer cited the two different 15-22 issues. Both examples referenced "she" as the shooter. I question the odds of a "she" each time. It then provides a brief background on this personnal injury attorney: "In terms of five-dollar words, James is a millionaire. Born in North Texas to two college professors, he is glad both to learn and to teach, and the law provides ample opportunities for both."
 
bamashooter said:
I've seen a few references to this and I believe one other issue. Certainly no fanboy of S&W I must ask what makes this OOB experience a common problem? In other words, I guess I'd need to see rifles sold / discharged numbers / OOBs, etc. As a side note, while researching the OOB issue moments ago, I ran across one of those lawyer ads, not all that different from those on tv. The lawyer cited the two different 15-22 issues. Both examples referenced "she" as the shooter. I question the odds of a "she" each time. It then provides a brief background on this personnal injury attorney: "In terms of five-dollar words, James is a millionaire. Born in North Texas to two college professors, he is glad both to learn and to teach, and the law provides ample opportunities for both."
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I somewhat agree with your thought process on it. As an interested buyer, I did my due diligence in researching the rifle and I'll tell you for every 5 articles I read about a good experience, I found an article about a bad experience or safety issue. When is the last time you heard about a safety issue with the 10/22? As horrible as the 715T is, how many safety issues have you heard about that rifle? I follow a Facebook group devoted to 15-22 owners. The problem is more common than most would recognize.

Given S&W's history and reputation in the market and the fact a well-known organization has banned its product for safety issues, it comes as no surprise that some attorney would jump at the opportunity to take them to court.
 
Logman78 said:
I somewhat agree with your thought process on it. As an interested buyer, I did my due diligence in researching the rifle and I'll tell you for every 5 articles I read about a good experience, I found an article about a bad experience or safety issue. When is the last time you heard about a safety issue with the 10/22? As horrible as the 715T is, how many safety issues have you heard about that rifle? I follow a Facebook group devoted to 15-22 owners. The problem is more common than most would recognize.

Given S&W's history and reputation in the market and the fact a well-known organization has banned its product for safety issues, it comes as no surprise that some attorney would jump at the opportunity to take them to court.
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OOB.............
 
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I've only ever seen 3 OOB 'explosions' (all thankfully in .22lr guns) and all three were in 10/22's. However, thats three rounds in the 10's if not 100's of thousands of rounds i've witnessed going down range in competitions....I'm not concerned that this is a particular safety issue with either rifle.
 
It is a polymer lower receiver, and as such if the holes drilled for the pins for the trigger and hammer are a bit out of spec, say larger, then you have issues with the hammer and sear engagement. Pin walking will cause wear on polymer a bit faster than on aluminum. I bought Colt 901 pins which are 1.00" long and not 0.900" long to better fit my 15-22 Performance Center rifle. They came from Brownell's just the other day. I drove both of them in, using the existing pins as "slave pins" and the length made it more flush HOWEVER, the pin for the trigger assembly was small enough to make wiggle in the hole that it resided in. Measured it after taking it out and it was 0.153. The pin I had originally, a S&W pin was 0.155 an extra 2 thousandth larger in diameter.

You can buy non walking pin sets.
Preferably I would have liked to cherry pick a bunch of pins and find 2 that were 0.157" and use those. It would have been a very tight fit, but I believe the polymer would give enough for the pins to pass through and they would be very secure then.

My thought is that SOMETIMES the lowers are drilled too big and there is enough slop and clearance that some rifles will be out of tolerance for sear and hammer meeting in a safe and functional manner.
 
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Best advice I could give is to contact Smith & Wesson if your rifle malfunctions and avail yourself of their lifetime warranty rather than allow an Appleseed "instructor" to Bubba up your rifle.
I'd also call S&W before swapping in new pins and especially before taking a hot nail to the polymer lower.
 
Aksarben said:
It is a polymer lower receiver, and as such if the holes drilled for the pins for the trigger and hammer are a bit out of spec, say larger, then you have issues with the hammer and sear engagement. Pin walking will cause wear on polymer a bit faster than on aluminum. I bought Colt 901 pins which are 1.00" long and not 0.900" long to better fit my 15-22 Performance Center rifle. They came from Brownell's just the other day. I drove both of them in, using the existing pins as "slave pins" and the length made it more flush HOWEVER, the pin for the trigger assembly was small enough to make wiggle in the hole that it resided in. Measured it after taking it out and it was 0.153. The pin I had originally, a S&W pin was 0.155 an extra 2 thousandth larger in diameter.

You can buy non walking pin sets, but what I did was get out the J-B Weld and plaster both holes and "PUSHED" the material down inside next to the pins. It set up and it is a lot more solid now.

Preferably I would have liked to cherry pick a bunch of pins and find 2 that were 0.157" dia and use those. It would have been a very tight fit, but I believe the polymer would give enough for the pins to pass through and they would be very secure then.

My theory is that the lowers are drilled too big and there is enough slop and clearance that some rifles will be out of tolerance for sear and hammer meeting in a safe and functional manner. Best advice I could give is to check over the holes/pin for good fit and don't oil them. If your new rifle shows too much play, I'd put in bigger pins, OR you can stake them with a hot small nail that will move the polymer material closer to the pins, and prevent rotation.
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With all due respect, you're giving out some bad advice. Butchering the lower receiver is not a good idea and could likely void the warranty. I have three 15-22s and none exhibit the "problems" you describe.
 
I agree about bad advice being given. This should maybe be in its' own thread but needs mentioning...

Our 15-22s use a generic "small pin" AR-15 trigger group. The "small pin" trigger and hammer pins are nominally .154" and .900" long. The pins that came in my 15-22s measure .1537" - .1538".

I use Geissele AR-15 trigger groups with Geisseles' 901 Colt trigger and hammer pins which are 1.000" long and sit flush with the outsides of the lower. There are (intentionally) slightly oversize and measure .1549" - .1550".

Measuring done with a 0 -1" vernier micrometer.
 
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Majorlk said:
With all due respect, you're giving out some bad advice. Butchering the lower receiver is not a good idea and could likely void the warranty. I have three 15-22s and none exhibit the "problems" you describe.
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Yes, you are correct. My bad, and I'm sorry. Suggesting that one should just modify their brand new firearm before contacting the mfg is not good advice. I recall reading about this same issue on the rimfire forums and new pins, etc were suggested. What I said about staking the pin, and new pins should be the last resort, and preferably on an out of warranty Smith & Wesson. Apologies! (I read read what I had posted)

If you do get a 15-22 that has loose holes they will more than likely have to re-issue a new receiver or put in oversize pins as you can make a hole bigger, but not smaller as such. I've worked as a drill press operation at Boeing and hole tolerance can be hard enough to hold on metal, let alone on polymer/plastic. I've made lower receivers out of 80% lowers and getting the hole correct for those pins is pretty critical. Oversize means scrap and start over.

Now with Polymer there is more "tricks" that can be done, as mentioned, just to tighten up an out of spec hole, but it's only as a last resort.

If S&W got more firearms like these back they might strongly suggest to the manufacturing process that these hole need to be better addressed in the future. They can't fix something if they don't think it's broken. So, if there are several of these out there that have out of spec holes for those pins, then they need to address that.
 
tomcatt51, I just got in some Colt 901 pins from Brownell's and after putting them in, the pin for the trigger seemed to be more sloppy. I took it out and measured it at 0.1530" x 1.000" and the original S&W pin that I had just taken out measured 0.155" x 0.900" The suggestion at the rimfirecentral forums was that Colt 901 trigger/hammer pins were longer and would address the "walking" possibility over the shorter 0.900" factory pins. I would LOVE to have had them 1.555" or even 1.556" and fit tight rather than be 0.002 smaller.
 
I've fired through my 15-22 (2012 quad rail version)thousands + rounds with various ammo brands. The factory pins never moved or looked like doing so...never had a problem with the factory extractor either, never had a FTE and all FTF were ammo related.

I like modding and adding things to my 'adult lego' so i got a new FCG and added a set of 15-22 specific anti walk pins, just because they perform a function of minimising wear and tear and of course minimise the chance for any pin walking related safety issues. I had full confidence in my 15-22 before but now the concern of pin walking is not even an issue.

I'm sure if S&W thought that the pin walking issue and subsequent OOB or full auto's were an endemic happening on all 15-22's then the chance of multiple lawsuits, even the possibility of having a serious injury or death, then they would recall and 'fix' the issue. Seeing that they did not even issue a response to any of these 'problems' tells me what i need to know.

Many a time i have walked into some child caused disasters in the playroom, my two little cherubs sitting amidst the carnage, smoothing down their angel feathers, looking all innocent, when asked what happened...'i didn't do anything to it' is a very common response. Many of these issues appear to have happened with rifles that more than likely have been 'modified' by the owner and therefore go beyond the remit of S&W's responsibilities. Yes, there appears to be teething issues with the later gen 2 models...but never forget that bad news travels through air molecules much faster than good.

I can honestly say that if my 15-22 were to go full auto on me, i would have to load another mag ;)
 
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