Anyone know anything about this Winchester load?
- Thread starter ColourCaseHardened
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It is the "Super Police" load, a trial of the heavy/slow bullet ammunition theory as tried by the British as you noted. I recall it clocked about 600 fps and was not found to be particularly effective.
This is sometimes confused with the .38/44 Heavy Duty/Outdoorsman load, an entirely different breed of cat (158 gr at 1100+ fps).
This is sometimes confused with the .38/44 Heavy Duty/Outdoorsman load, an entirely different breed of cat (158 gr at 1100+ fps).
Several gun writers did penetration test in the early 1970's using this round. Can't remember too much except their trial on car doors using a snub nose revolver. Very poor performance led them to shout out to an offender, "halt or I will scratch your paint".
OP
ColourCaseHardened
Member
Informative responses!
Thank you gentlemen, was thinking it wouldn't be a very good load or it would have a better reputation.
Thank you gentlemen, was thinking it wouldn't be a very good load or it would have a better reputation.
Be a good one to put on the display shelf...
Pull the trigger then run along side the bullet?
OP
ColourCaseHardened
Member
46er is that the voice of experience speaking?
Doug M.
Member
I suspect that the shape of the bullet is the main problem. Round nose ammo is not a good choice for most serious purposes.
Alk8944
US Veteran
As said above that is the 200 gr. "Super Police" load. 200 gr. is really too heavy for .38 Special resulting in very poor performance and low bullet energy. I still have a few of those rounds that I have had since the 1960s.
This is from my chronograph records:
In November 1995. I shot them over my then new Oehler 35P chronograph. Distance to the screens was 10 feet. I fired two sample strings of, 5 rounds each from a 5" M&P. The average muzzle velocities for the two samples were:
#1, 635 FPS avg.
Extreme spread 104 FPS
Standard deviation 34 FPS
Energy calculated 178 ft. pounds
#2, 621 FPS avg.
ES 192 FPS
SD 49
Energy 170 ft. pounds
I don't record individual shot velocities as they mean nothing.
As you can see velocity was quite low and ES and SD figures quite high, indicating severe inconsistency. This load is "Super" in name only.
At one time Winchester loaded the same bullet in the ,38 S&W, also called the Super Police. I have never seen any of these. I hate to think how poor the performance of them was!
On the same day, same conditions as above but a different 5" M&P, I fired a hand load of the Lyman 358430, nominal 199 gr. round nose that basically replicates the Winchester Super Police bullet. Load was 3.9 gr/Unique, Rem 1 1/2 primer, sample again only 5 rounds. This was added just for your curiosity! Results were:
692 FPS avg.
ES 55 FPS
SD 15 FPS
Energy calculated 212 ft. lbs.
This is from my chronograph records:
In November 1995. I shot them over my then new Oehler 35P chronograph. Distance to the screens was 10 feet. I fired two sample strings of, 5 rounds each from a 5" M&P. The average muzzle velocities for the two samples were:
#1, 635 FPS avg.
Extreme spread 104 FPS
Standard deviation 34 FPS
Energy calculated 178 ft. pounds
#2, 621 FPS avg.
ES 192 FPS
SD 49
Energy 170 ft. pounds
I don't record individual shot velocities as they mean nothing.
As you can see velocity was quite low and ES and SD figures quite high, indicating severe inconsistency. This load is "Super" in name only.
At one time Winchester loaded the same bullet in the ,38 S&W, also called the Super Police. I have never seen any of these. I hate to think how poor the performance of them was!
On the same day, same conditions as above but a different 5" M&P, I fired a hand load of the Lyman 358430, nominal 199 gr. round nose that basically replicates the Winchester Super Police bullet. Load was 3.9 gr/Unique, Rem 1 1/2 primer, sample again only 5 rounds. This was added just for your curiosity! Results were:
692 FPS avg.
ES 55 FPS
SD 15 FPS
Energy calculated 212 ft. lbs.
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Alk8944
US Veteran
Original remark from 46er: "They are not fun to shoot in a J frame."
This is, no doubt, an opinion, based on an incorrect assumption! As I recall when I shot this load as described above recoil was very similar to that normally experienced with 158 gr. standard velocity .38 Special, hardly uncomfortable, even in a "J-Frame"!
An "aside" you may be interested in. In about 1972 I very nearly shot a fleeing armed robbery subject (We could still do that then!) with the Winchester load in question. Just as I was squeezing the trigger he stopped and threw his hands up! Very close though.
This is really a funny story! He had just gotten out of prison and taken a friend to Las Vegas to celebrate getting out. While in Vegas their hotel room was burglarized and their money stolen, ain't Karma a Bxxxx.
They only had money to get to SLC so they robbed a women's clothing store, "Betty's Bra Bar" (really
) for gas money. They were from Missouri as I recall.He told the detective that he stopped because he knew he would be shot and he didn't want to go back to prison and be shot too.
You had to be there. He had abandoned a blank pistol in the car when ran from it.Free advice: If you are going to commit a robbery don't hold up a clothing store! The women described the two men "to a T". They only got 1/2 block on foot from the store before I saw them walking to their car. The description was perfect and there was no doubt I had the right people.
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