APEX Carry Kit

[wholelottadogs]

Hello Y'all! New member from the great state of North Carolina wishing to introduce myself to the forum. I joined because I bought an M&P 45 last year to replace my Sig 220 ST for conceal carry and wanted to change the trigger out using the APEX carry/duty kit.

I have heard from gunnies round these parts that even though the APEX installation is legal, there could be legal issues if, GOD forbid, I used a modified handgun in a righteous shot.

I am leaning toward installing the whole kit, not just replace the hard sear, which I'm told will keep me at or above the "5 lb. trigger pull threshold" which seems to be the topic of concern-anything under 5 lb. being considered questionable.

Any feedback?

 

[Moonman]

Welcome aboard.

Your question needs to be asked of an ATTORNEY that has knowledge of Laws, Opinions and Legal Rulings in your Great State of North Carolina concerning this subject.

 

[OKFC05]

Ditto that you need to discuss this with a specialist attorney in your state. The subject has been beaten to death and there is no universal agreement.

One thing a good attorney will tell you is that your big mouth is more dangerous to your fate than any custom work done to your gun if you do shoot somebody.

 

[Doug M.]

The Apex stuff is heavily recommended by hard guys over at 10-8 and LF. There is a specific duty kit, which is what I would recommend. Personally, I think reset is made too much of a big deal.

 

[cracker57]

I have done this work on my M&P40c and have wondered the same thing. I am no lawyer, I have not talked to a lawyer , But I would think if your lawyer can argue the fact that it made the gun more accurate therefore safer it was good for the public.
I think everyone that answered hit the nail on the head about talking to a local lawyer OR TWO.
I am taking Massad Ayoobs Mag 40 class in June and your Question will be the first thing I ask. My money bets he says "talk to layers in your area as things can and will change from one court to the next." Anyone want to guess what you think he will say.
I did keep my original parts and they may go back in, But I would really miss the reset you get with the Apex kit.
Cracker57

 

[OKFC05]

Anyone want to guess what you think he will say.

If I recall correctly, he said something like you are responsible for everything you say and do, including your gun and ammo. Any modifications you make give the court something more to examine. He encourages stock guns and factory ammo like the police use, because in some specific cases he cites, it was a factor in court.

And of course if you are dumb enough to say "the gun accidentally went off" then lightening the trigger opens up a can of negligence worms.

 

[wholelottadogs]

Thx all for ur comments. Having talked to a lawyer, the general answer seems to be "don't change it." It appears that, while not illegal, modifications to triggers and pull sends a "red flag." A good lawyer could resolve the issue, but why go there for 1 or 2 lb. less pull-IMO only. Looks like I'm tapping out! Long live gritty triggers!

 

[Chuck1217]

wholelotta, I think you have it right. I have read a lot of Ayyoob's stuff, and it seems the bottom line is- IF you have the right attorney, IF you have a decent jury- IF you aren't perceived as increasing lethality- well, I garee, minor change in trigger wieght probably isn;t worth it.

 

[stick_man]

While I agree with Ayyoob on most things, I have never seen nor heard of any court proceeding where the outcome of any trial was influenced by the type of ammo being used. I can see influence due to an accidental discharge, but if you are in a SD, life-or-death type situation, would shooting reloads or shooting a modified gun make an otherwise justifiable shooting suddenly be classified as "unjustified"? Can one bullet or gun kill someone/thing any more dead than another? Isn't dead dead? Last I heard, there is "lethal" and there is "less than lethal".

All this said, I do agree it is a very good idea to consult with at least one attorney if you have any concerns about any modifications being made to your firearm.

 

[Doug M.]

A lot of this is going to vary by the culture of the community in which the event occurs. I am not convinced that such an argument would fly under the evidence rules, and it is not one about which I would worry, spending most of my time where I do.

BUT: I live in a courtroom, doing criminal prosecution, and I have been in many conflicts with opposing counsel who make dumb arguments. Most lawyers don't know much/enough about use of force, tactics and the like, and prosecutors and defense attorneys are no better. I've been pretty active in our state association for years, and I have seen some pretty unsound comments made by people who didn't know of what they spoke. Even on the other side of the state (Seattle area) with the same laws and training, the culture of the community is such that the stupid is strong.

 

[wholelottadogs]

Thank you Sir for your service and comments. You are right; it really is the culture of the community. In my county, I "hear" that the DA is very pro 2nd amendment, and will not prosecute any "righteous" shoot. But I have also heard the the DA of the next county will prosecute any righteous shooter that uses "modified" guns or Glaser Slugs.

Add to this that North Carolina has just passed into law the Castle Doctrine, and the question for me is "do I chance it?" Thousands of dollars in legal fees to prove or disprove what someone believes is "excessive" has changed my mind....at least for now. Bought a laser/light and added XS Big Dot Sights instead. Thank you all for your interest. God bless.

 

[GerSan69]

If I may throw my 2 cents' worth in:
Many guns have optional accessories available: triggers, hammers, spring kits, etc. If it's made for your weapon, IMHO it's OK. If it's something you did to the gun on the kitchen table that you aren't trained for, like cutting a spring, or filing on the sear 'cause you read about that somewhere, then that's a different story.
If you ever have to use your weapon, just don't brag about having a Wolfe spring kit or Apex or whatever. The crime lab guy that test-fires your gun isn't a gunsmith, so all he's looking for is a safe, properly-functioning weapon that's not going to fire without a deliberate trigger pull. I don't know Apex, but if "duty" and "carry" are in the description and it's made for your gun, it's fine. Just stay away from "target" parts for carry.

 

[Chuck1217]

Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court by Mas Ayoob

I don't think Ayoob means to say it's right that prosecutors go after people with modified weapons or ammo, it's just that the prosecutor can- and has- tried to use it to modify a 'good shoot' into a bad one. I don't really care about this issue much, and it's been beaten to death on every forum I read, but I don't think it's wise to ignore the ideas out there that- it could happen. Ballistics testing is crazy accurate today, and if you get the wrong prosecutor, and there is the slightest chance he can improve his political future- and you may get off without going to jail but how umch will it cost us to defend ourselves? to get someone like Ayoob, expert s in ballistics etc- well, I am not going to reduce my trigger pull weight, and I'm not gonna carry anything but manufactured ammo. That's just me.

 

[cracker57]

chuck1217
Thanks for posting that. Makes sense to me.
Cracker