Apex Trigger- no audible or tactile reset

[Fastbolt]

I know at least one of the major gun companies likes to teach their instructors to teach "shoot to trigger reset", but I've often suspected that's because of their long trigger recovery/travel and less-than-wonderful "service grade" triggers. Their prerogative to teach what they want to teach, though.

For you SIG enthusiasts, if you ever take a SIG armorer class, ask why their Enhanced DA action (also called DAK) has a heavier trigger pull if the trigger isn't released to fully recover, but the initial and subsequent fully recovered trigger pull weight is lighter? I did, during an armorer class. The answer told to the class was that SIG engineers wanted the shorter pull to be heavier as a safety precaution in case a cop didn't release the trigger to recover, but kept their finger on the trigger when it reached the shorter mechanical reset point.

That said, as a LE firearms instructor for some years, I would never want to try and explain in court why I taught a cop to keep his/her finger on a "reset" trigger, held at the reset point under the stress of the moment of a OIS, before they've decided they're going to fire another shot and intentionally shoot someone ... and especially if that cop ended up being excited and "recoil rocked" an unintended subsequent shot off that hit someone it ought not have hit. (Or was startled, had a muscle tremor, etc.)

I wouldn't want some attorney to ask me if I was familiar with the 4 basic rules for firearms safety, and if so, ask me why I'd teach someone to try to keep their finger on a "reset" trigger during the heat of some life and death incident before they were ready to fire an intentional shot.

It doesn't take much in the way of an unexpected momentary startle response, or a physical 'yip' to occur, or a moment's confusion of hand/finger control to happen. Like if the shooter stumbles in their balance while shooting/moving, or tries to clench or grab something with their other fingers, or activate something with their other index finger, etc), and that causes their trigger finger to trip that trigger - unintentionally, by mistake (negligence) - while it's held at the reset point.

Having known of some cops who experienced involuntary ND's on the street during high risk incidents - because they had their fingers pressed against the trigger before they'd decided they needed to shoot - it's not an easy mistake to explain, let alone think to justify. Even if the only resulting damage is property (and thankfully not persons).

You can easily find videos of well known, highly skilled and successful competitive shooters who would be called "trigger slappers" nowadays, and it doesn't detract from their shooting abilities.

As another member has already mentioned, the folks who were trained in shooting DA revolvers learned to shoot to trigger recovery, not trigger reset.

If you have a problem with your trigger technique and trigger control (finding, jerking, clenching or yanking your trigger so it affects POI), considering getting some help and instruction to correct bad habits and then refine and work to master a good technique.

Oh yeah, the value of that "audible reset"?

If sensory deficit (auditory exclusion under stress) can mute the sound (realization) of gunfire occurring, how do you expect to hear the subtle little click of "audible reset" in a live-fire, deadly force encounter?

Now, if you're just enjoying shooting on the leisure/sport/competition range, or even just enjoying some plinking, that might be another matter.

Just my thoughts.

 

[chiefbob81]

Just got my apex trigger and duty kit today, watched the install videos again. In the apex company video it actually states there is no audible reset. Doing the install this weekend, wish me luck!

 

[hardluk1]

We have two m&p's with appex fss trigger kits one is may wifes old match fun gun , a m&p core with a forward reset kit and ajusted 3lb 4oz pull weight my wife likes . It was lighter . Mines is a standard 40sw m&p 4.25 with thumb safety and 3lb 10oz trigger . I have to say nether have very noticable tactical resets compared to other pistols but its not something I pay attention to while shooting . Only time I hear a reset "click" is during maintinance ! I guess I'm one of those guys the practices sweeping the trigger or slapping but I don't think I fast enough to consider what I do a slap !!

Any how I may carry lw commander with a nice 3.5lb trigger or a p320 c 40sw with a stock 5lb 6oz trigger but most times now its my m&p 4.25 . When a little smaller is wanted I still have a da sa 669 I will carry at times . Trigger pull type matters less it you learn to sweep the trigger instead of following the reset but regardless there more thangs to worry about than a reset you can feel .

To me following the reset is for target shooting when trigger break is more controled along with breathing .

 

[Arndog123]

Just got done installing a 3rd Gen slide stop that I bought off EBay. I'm very happy to say my M&P 45C 1.0 now has an audible/tactile reset. Feels just like the reset on my M&P 2.0's.

 

[chiefbob81]

Trigger, sear and springs all in. Reset can be felt clearly, nothing audible. Off to the range tomorrow.

 

[JNewell]

I know at least one of the major gun companies likes to teach their instructors to teach "shoot to trigger reset", but I've often suspected that's because of their long trigger recovery/travel and less-than-wonderful "service grade" triggers. Their prerogative to teach what they want to teach, though.

For you SIG enthusiasts, if you ever take a SIG armorer class, ask why their Enhanced DA action (also called DAK) has a heavier trigger pull if the trigger isn't released to fully recover, but the initial and subsequent fully recovered trigger pull weight is lighter? I did, during an armorer class. The answer told to the class was that SIG engineers wanted the shorter pull to be heavier as a safety precaution in case a cop didn't release the trigger to recover, but kept their finger on the trigger when it reached the shorter mechanical reset point.

That said, as a LE firearms instructor for some years, I would never want to try and explain in court why I taught a cop to keep his/her finger on a "reset" trigger, held at the reset point under the stress of the moment of a OIS, before they've decided they're going to fire another shot and intentionally shoot someone ... and especially if that cop ended up being excited and "recoil rocked" an unintended subsequent shot off that hit someone it ought not have hit. (Or was startled, had a muscle tremor, etc.)

I wouldn't want some attorney to ask me if I was familiar with the 4 basic rules for firearms safety, and if so, ask me why I'd teach someone to try to keep their finger on a "reset" trigger during the heat of some life and death incident before they were ready to fire an intentional shot.

It doesn't take much in the way of an unexpected momentary startle response, or a physical 'yip' to occur, or a moment's confusion of hand/finger control to happen. Like if the shooter stumbles in their balance while shooting/moving, or tries to clench or grab something with their other fingers, or activate something with their other index finger, etc), and that causes their trigger finger to trip that trigger - unintentionally, by mistake (negligence) - while it's held at the reset point.

Having known of some cops who experienced involuntary ND's on the street during high risk incidents - because they had their fingers pressed against the trigger before they'd decided they needed to shoot - it's not an easy mistake to explain, let alone think to justify. Even if the only resulting damage is property (and thankfully not persons).

You can easily find videos of well known, highly skilled and successful competitive shooters who would be called "trigger slappers" nowadays, and it doesn't detract from their shooting abilities.

As another member has already mentioned, the folks who were trained in shooting DA revolvers learned to shoot to trigger recovery, not trigger reset.

If you have a problem with your trigger technique and trigger control (finding, jerking, clenching or yanking your trigger so it affects POI), considering getting some help and instruction to correct bad habits and then refine and work to master a good technique.

Oh yeah, the value of that "audible reset"?

If sensory deficit (auditory exclusion under stress) can mute the sound (realization) of gunfire occurring, how do you expect to hear the subtle little click of "audible reset" in a live-fire, deadly force encounter?

Now, if you're just enjoying shooting on the leisure/sport/competition range, or even just enjoying some plinking, that might be another matter.

Just my thoughts.

Very coherent and well-reasoned post. Thanks for taking the time to write that all up.

 

[Rastoff]

I don't understand why the concept of knowing the reset is so difficult. Neither do I understand why people keep trying to turn it into something it's not.

I wouldn't want some attorney to ask me if I was familiar with the 4 basic rules for firearms safety, and if so, ask me why I'd teach someone to try to keep their finger on a "reset" trigger during the heat of some life and death incident before they were ready to fire an intentional shot.

The question isn't why is their finger on a reset trigger, but rather, why is the gun pointed at someone when there is no reason to shoot them?

The reset won't ever be felt under a controlled pair or in any rapid shot. The stress of potentially losing their life would render anyone incapable of that level of tactile feeling. Using the reset is only a training tool. It helps teach proper trigger control. Without good trigger control, a good shot isn't possible. Don't you want someone out on the street, policeman or not, to be a good shot so they don't miss and hit some innocent?


No, you wouldn't feel or hear the reset under stress, but you will during live fire practice. Fortune favors the prepared. Prepare for the event by practicing and learning good trigger control. Lean good trigger control by learning the reset of the gun.


Never, ever point a gun at someone unless that person intends to deliver great bodily harm or death to you. By following the 4 basic rules, specifically rule #2: never cover anything with the muzzle you're not willing to destroy, it ensures you'll never have to explain to a jury why your finger was on the trigger of a gun pointed at someone when it wasn't absolutely necessary.

 

[Fastbolt]

I don't understand why the concept of knowing the reset is so difficult. Neither do I understand why people keep trying to turn it into something it's not.

The question isn't why is their finger on a reset trigger, but rather, why is the gun pointed at someone when there is no reason to shoot them?

The reset won't ever be felt under a controlled pair or in any rapid shot. The stress of potentially losing their life would render anyone incapable of that level of tactile feeling. Using the reset is only a training tool. It helps teach proper trigger control. Without good trigger control, a good shot isn't possible. Don't you want someone out on the street, policeman or not, to be a good shot so they don't miss and hit some innocent?


No, you wouldn't feel or hear the reset under stress, but you will during live fire practice. Fortune favors the prepared. Prepare for the event by practicing and learning good trigger control. Lean good trigger control by learning the reset of the gun.


Never, ever point a gun at someone unless that person intends to deliver great bodily harm or death to you. By following the 4 basic rules, specifically rule #2: never cover anything with the muzzle you're not willing to destroy, it ensures you'll never have to explain to a jury why your finger was on the trigger of a gun pointed at someone when it wasn't absolutely necessary.

I was speaking as a former LE firearms instructor.

Do you ever train cops? Can you envision a situation where a cop might have reason to have someone at gun point, but isn't shooting them at that moment?

Knowing how, where and why the mechanical reset occurs is one thing. How the mechanical trigger reset and recovery points occur can be good training topics for instruction in understanding normal operation and functioning of firearms. Knowing the trigger reset is properly occurring has also been taught as part of a safety inspection of a reassembled empty firearm for armorers and firearms instructors.

However, teaching oneself to shoot to trigger reset may be disadvantageous, especially if you shoot more than one design of handgun. Different designs can have different reset and trigger recovery points. Mixing up which is which under stress can be a bad thing.

Having seen some shooters try to hold a trigger at the mechanical reset point in the midst of a demanding qual/training drill scenario, before they've made the decision (judgment evaluation) of whether they're going to be required to continue shooting, has created instances where an unintended shot has been fired.

Often it's caused by someone trying to find and hold the recovering trigger at the short mechanical reset point, while the effects of recoil forces and cycling are still affecting the shooter, and instead of sufficiently easing off the force being placed against the trigger face, they unintentionally press the trigger enough for the gun to fire another shot.

Might be a startle response. Might be the recoil and mechanical cycling causing them to unconsciously "rock" the trigger. Might be a moment's balance instability or a postural change. Might be bumping the weapon against an obstacle (cover barrier). Might be a "yip" (tremor). Might be a moment of hand/finger confusion.

Most shooters have generally been startled by having their pistols fire that unintended shot. You can watch the realization in their eyes, on their faces and in their demeanor.

Fortunately, on a hot range where the shooters are always keeping their muzzles pointed "downrange", the unintended shot typically strikes nothing of consequence. Since the environment outside a controlled range can't be guaranteed to provide a "safe" direction for unintentional shots, it's a risk for that ND bullet hitting something that ought not be hit, even if it's a ricochet that finds somewhere to land that ought not be hit.

In revolver days it was easier to teach shooters to allow their revolver triggers to fully recover. It was also necessary because otherwise the DA triggers wouldn't function properly without being allowed to fully recover.

While using the mechanical reset point has been used as a familiarization tool to help someone understand the normal functioning and operation of a given firearm, teaching its use as an actual trigger control technique during live fire is subject of some occasional disagreement among some instructors, and even among different gun companies when it comes to what they instruct or teach for owner and firearms instructor training.

In my case it was always rather simple. While mechanical operations were taught as instruction points (including recognizing how triggers would reset, and recover), we were always told that shooters were not to be taught to try and keep their fingers on triggers unless the decision had been made to fire the weapon. Trying to hold a "reset" trigger at a mechanical reset point between shots, meaning before the decision was made to fire a subsequent shot, presented a risk of the trigger being unintentionally pressed under the wrong circumstances.

Sure, ND's are always a risk, as people have even managed to unintentionally (negligently) fire heavy DA/DAO triggers without meaning to fire. However, having a "nervous" finger against a reset trigger can arguably further add to the risk. Trigger slack, "prep" and "take-up" (all terms heard among shooting enthusiasts) is eliminated, and the least amount of finger pressure and movement is needed for the weapon to fire.

Why did the gun fire? Because a finger was on the trigger.

Even if someone ignored "Rule #2", presuming no mechanical or physical weapon problems or conditions exist (stuck firing pin, for example), it takes a finger pressing a trigger to fire the weapon. If the finger is already there, holding the trigger at the point where it's ready to break, now there's one less mistake that's needed before something unintended might occur.

I'm certainly not trying to change the minds of leisure and sport shooters. Nor am I responsible for being a firearms trainer for anyone on this forum. In other words, I'm not "your" (anyone reading it) instructor. I trained the folks I was told to train, and how I was told to train them throughout the years. I was also directed and constrained by policy. I may do so again in the future, although I decided to resign from being an instructor a little while ago, to relax and take a sabbatical for a while.

These are just my thoughts offered for the sake of discussion.

 

[Rastoff]

Two different subjects here; pointing a gun at a threat and trigger reset.

In regards to pointing at a threat:

Do you ever train cops?

Yes, I've trained policemen and trained with policemen. However, only in the aspect of how to shoot, not specifically police tactics. That is irrelevant to my statement.

Can you envision a situation where a cop might have reason to have someone at gun point, but isn't shooting them at that moment?

Yes. I can also envision a situation where a civilian might have a threat at gunpoint and not need to shoot them. Those situations are extremely short lived and measured in seconds rather than minutes.

There is a serious problem with pointing a gun at someone without the need or intention of shooting them. What do you do when they don't comply with your commands? If you're not ready to shoot them, the threat of the gun is empty and therefore, the gun shouldn't be pointed at them in the first place. In other words, if they don't present an immediate and lethal threat, why is the gun pointed at them?

Also, having the gun out and having it pointed at someone are two different things.



In regards to trigger reset:

However, teaching oneself to shoot to trigger reset may be disadvantageous, especially if you shoot more than one design of handgun.

Hmmm, I think you're thinking of something different when discussing the reset. The phrase "shooting to reset" sounds like something different than how I would use the reset in training. To me it means that the shooter presses the trigger to fire the gun and then immediately lets his trigger finger bounce to the reset. That would be poor trigger control.

The way the reset should be used is in two conscious actions:

1. Press the trigger to fire the gun and trap the trigger to the rear.
2. Purposefully let the trigger out to the reset.

If a follow up shot is necessary, repeat 1 and 2.

This is used as a tool during training to teach trigger control. It helps reduce the chances of slapping at the trigger. It helps to ensure all shots are intentional rather than just whacking at the trigger.

Trigger reset is not the "is all, be all, end all" of shooting technique. It's just a tool to help learn trigger control.

There are 6 fundamentals of shooting:

• Stance
• Grip
• Sight Alignment
• Sight Picture
• Trigger Control
• Follow Through

Trigger reset is used to help with learning trigger control. Nothing more.

 

[Fastbolt]

...
The way the reset should be used is in two conscious actions:

1. Press the trigger to fire the gun and trap the trigger to the rear.
2. Purposefully let the trigger out to the reset.

If a follow up shot is necessary, repeat 1 and 2.

This is used as a tool during training to teach trigger control. It helps reduce the chances of slapping at the trigger. It helps to ensure all shots are intentional rather than just whacking at the trigger.
...

This is where I tend to disagree.

That may be fine for plinking and sport shooting where you're never going to be startled and anxious about the potential of being shot by someone, and you can always have a designated safe backstop at your disposal downrange.

The thing is that trying to hold that trigger back and not release it until a subsequent shot is decided to be needed still keeps a finger on the trigger before the decision is made to shoot that next shot - or not shoot it.

It's difficult enough to break people of the habit to touch, and even "stage", triggers as it is. It's been observed in some studies that it's likely a bad habit that apparently serves as a "tactile comfort" and reassurance (while experiencing fear) to some people experiencing stress, confirming to themselves that they're ready and able to shoot their weapon.

If you're using it as a teaching tool (versus a familiarity with function and operation tool) it's not my business, but what happens if someone uses that tool as a technique off the range, in an actual self defense incident? What if they trigger a shot because they were trying to hold that trigger back, but trembled and fired it? There's a reason for keeping a finger off the trigger until the decision is made to put a hole in something.

Once you see some folks experience that sort of unexpected shot under only the minimal range stress of being observed while being trained or qualifying, it's not hard to consider that it might be a problem off the range if they're under severe stress.

Also, there are some excellent shooters who are "trigger slappers". It's the ability to exert control over the press, and not spasmodically jerk or uncontrollably "slap" at a recovered trigger that's good trigger control.

Trying to hold a trigger back and not let it recover until the decision is made to shoot another round isn't something that was commonly taught in the days of teaching foundation handgun skills on DA revolvers.

Like I said, it's not my business what other instructors teach their students to do. They're the ones who may be required to explain their reasoning in depos or court cases if one of their students tries to blame a ND on a technique they were taught. I only had to worry about it for the people I helped train and teach, and that was enough of a concern for me (especially because I was required to teach it that way and had to remain within policy for reasons of liability).

FWIW, this is still a subject of occasional contention and disagreement among LE instructors, so it's not like there's going to be a definitive "right" answer arising anytime soon. We go with what we're required to teach as instructors, or how we want to teach (especially if outside the LE/Gov training circles where policy reigns right after statutory law).

Bottom line, whatever technique is taught for "trigger control", if it involves teaching someone to have a finger on the trigger before they intend to shoot something (again), and the gun fires before they intended to fire ... and the bullet hits someone who ought not have been shot ... you might expect to have your legal team earn their money in explaining why violating Rule #2 is being taught as a "technique" for holding the trigger back.

 

[Rastoff]

The thing is that trying to hold that trigger back and not release it until a subsequent shot is decided to be needed still keeps a finger on the trigger before the decision is made to shoot that next shot - or not shoot it.

This is the problem with communication through the written word. What you've written here is not what I said at all. The trigger is not trapped until another decision to shoot. It is trapped and then consciously released to the reset. Then the trigger finger comes off the trigger and outside the trigger guard. The decision to shoot or not is made after the reset.

Once you see some folks experience that sort of unexpected shot under only the minimal range stress of being observed while being trained or qualifying, it's not hard to consider that it might be a problem off the range if they're under severe stress.

Agreed, this is a serious problem, but it has absolutely nothing to do with trigger reset. However, no one will ever get shot if rule #2 is followed.


Again, two separate issues here. Rule #2 states: Never cover anything with the muzzle you're not willing to destroy. If that person is not a deadly threat, why are you pointing your gun at them? This applies to anyone, including policemen.

Regardless of how the trigger reset is used, it's not an issue related to pointing a gun at someone. Why? Because you've already taken at least one shot. So, there was already a deadly threat that needed to be shot. This means that the trigger reset, under the conditions you describe, is moot.

 

[Fastbolt]

This is the problem with communication through the written word. What you've written here is not what I said at all. The trigger is not trapped until another decision to shoot. It is trapped and then consciously released to the reset. Then the trigger finger comes off the trigger and outside the trigger guard. The decision to shoot or not is made after the reset.

Okay, that helps clarify it a bit. Written communication can muddle in-progress conversations.

However, and perhaps this is just because you aren't explaining it in person in front of students, but trying to convey it in narrative ...

But... why just release the trigger to the reset point if you're going to remove your finger from the trigger guard? Why not just come off the trigger and let it recover and remove your finger? Touching the trigger and holding it even momentarily at the reset point means you're still exerting pressure to hold the trigger from further recovery, and that's when a tremor, yip or moment of hand/finger confusion under elevated stress can result in another press instead of a lift-off movement.

Regardless of how the trigger reset is used, it's not an issue related to pointing a gun at someone. Why? Because you've already taken at least one shot. So, there was already a deadly threat that needed to be shot. This means that the trigger reset, under the conditions you describe, is moot.

There may have been a reasonably perceived deadly threat that justified the previous shot to be fired, but once that moment is over, if another shot is negligently discharged once the threat is no longer present? Not moot.

You're right in catching me listing Rule #2 instead of Rule #3, BTW, as I was looking at the language of a previous post while typing and my keystrokes copied it.

Hey, we just had another aftershock up here. Glad I didn't have my finger on the keyboard when it happened.

 

[JNewell]

Piping up to say I'm enjoying reading this.

I'm glad I learned to shoot handguns many decades ago when the mainstream choices in the U.S. were trigger-cocking revolvers and slide-cocking pistols. Pistols that combined trigger-cocking and slide-cocking were mostly foreign and I think they were mostly regarded as curiosities or novelties, at least by those outside the Illinois State Police. Most Americans could probably only name one striker-fired pistol, if any.

I do think that coming to pistols with a solid background in DA revolvers makes a difference in how you approach trigger control, but that horse left the barn and headed out across the county line a long time ago.

 

[Fastbolt]

Piping up to say I'm enjoying reading this.

I'm glad I learned to shoot handguns many decades ago when the mainstream choices in the U.S. were trigger-cocking revolvers and slide-cocking pistols. Pistols that combined trigger-cocking and slide-cocking were mostly foreign and I think they were mostly regarded as curiosities or novelties, at least by those outside the Illinois State Police. Most Americans could probably only name one striker-fired pistol, if any.

I do think that coming to pistols with a solid background in DA revolvers makes a difference in how you approach trigger control, but that horse left the barn and headed out across the county line a long time ago.

Yeah, I learned to shoot handguns using single action pistols and single action revolvers. I grudgingly accepted that trigger-cocking revolvers weren't just a fad and acclimated to them, as well. Good thing, as that's what they told me I had to carry when I entered LE.

I'd paid scant attention to the traditional DA pistols, but that soon changed after I'd entered LE. Go figure, right?

The next grudging acceptance was the reinvention of the striker-fired pistol for modern LE work, although it was a bit easier by that point because by then all handguns were starting to look like variations on a theme. Just another handgun.

 

[Rastoff]

But... why just release the trigger to the reset point if you're going to remove your finger from the trigger guard?

It's difficult to talk about one aspect of shooting without including the others. I don't think this can be understood without including the whole of the situation.

Let me say it this way...if you're pointed in at an immediate and potentially deadly threat, you're finger needs to be on the trigger. If you press the trigger at this point, good. After all, that's why you had the gun out in the first place.

If you're not pointed at a threat, why on God's green Earth is your finger on the trigger?

 

[bad2006z71]

OP. All my Gen 1 Pro series pistols did not have the latest parts.
Check to make sure you have the latest gen trigger bar and the slide stop with the bump. That made the biggest impact on felt reset for mine.
I also added the APEX RAM, but I felt the updated slide stop helped more.

 

[Fastbolt]

... You'll never get to reset on a M&P to be like a Glock.

That's because much of what people hear (and to a degree, feel) in the Glock "reset" is essentially connector slap.