Archaeologist and question on .38 revolver

[archy]

Hello,

I am an archaeologist who works to help recover the 60,000+ missing American servicemembers from past conflicts. I mainly focus on world war 2.

Recently, we have been researching unidentified remains recovered originally from Formosa (modern day Taiwan). One of the unknowns had paperwork in the file regarding things found on the body back in the 1940s post-war recovery operations by the Army Graves Registration Service. Although we no longer have the physical revolver, a .38 Smith and Wesson revolver is mentioned. One document said it had the number "217977" on it (but no description of where). Another page has handwritten notes by an unknown military official that says "Serial # V-217977" (also one other part of the record says V-218977, which may be a typo? since other numbers have 7 rather than 8.)

My question is, can the community here help with advice on how to find more information regarding this firearm? Invoices or other historical records that may help narrow down a shortlist of what individuals or units it may have been issued to? We do know the remains were a crewmember of a TBM Avenger most likely, so that means a Navy officer. Many Navy officers were shot down and went missing in Taiwan during the Air Battle of Formossa, so this only helps so much.

Finding more information about the revolver, if it exist, will greatly aid in identifying these remains so they can be buried with military honors and presented to the family of whoever it may be. Any advice or comments on this historical question are greatly appreciated, as I am not a firearms expert.

Thank you!

 

[Hawg Rider]

There are quite a few S&W Victory revolver experts here on the Forum, and I'm sure that they will be along shortly to chime in on your questions. The .38/200 and .38 Special Victory revolvers were all manufactured between 1942 and 1945, ranging from V1 to V811119 (per "Standard Catalog of S&W 4th Ed."). I would think that the revolver with the s/n that you provided (either V217977 or V218977) would be a late-1942 to early-1943 .38 Spl. The only way to be sure of the dates, and for additional information on the particular revolver, is to request a letter from S&W. Others will be along to help. Good luck, and thank you for your research and support!

 

[old bear]

Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation Information


Sir, the above is the best I can offer. Try getting hold of them. I am sure they would be willing to help you. Best of luck.

 

[Goony]

My (limited) data would strongly suggest that the revolver in question was shipped to the Navy in January of 1943. I imagine the stumbling block with respect to documenting its issuance to an individual will be whether naval records of its subsequent routing through the system remain extant.

 

[MajorD]

Archy thank you for your work on such a noble cause!

While I know anyone in the historical arms community would do anything they can to help, it would be extremely difficult to identify who was issued the revolver in question. Most efforts to ID who was issued a military weapon are very needle in a haystack and usually any information found is by dumb luck more than anything.

In this case starting by identifying what aircraft carriers/ squadrons were participating in the battle in which the aircraft was lost would be a start, and if any archival records from that ship/ squadron are available digging through them to see if any records of weapons issued were part of the records. In many cases, I suspect most such records have been lost to history many years ago.
In my military experience records like this were often destroyed or discarded frequently as they were updated/ replaced by more current documents.
Best of luck on your search, and if you do indeed find out anything or are able to ultimately identify the aviator we would like to hear back from you

 

[Truckman]

Here is one site I used in some of my books...It's tedious, but can be productive......Ben

 

[Truckman]

I just did a cursory look through the National Archives using the gun's serial number (without the V) and came up with 70 possibilities...Since the OP is a DoD archeologist, he no doubt has looked at this source already, but for those interested, it is a public information source......Ben

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum and thank you for the work that you do!

 

[murphydog]

Welcome and thank you for your work and willingness to go the extra mile in your research.

Given the sheer volume of US Navy carrier assets in the western Pacific toward the end of WW II, unless you are able to narrow down the ship to which the aviator was assigned it is unlikely you will find specific information related to the revolver. My understanding is that the firearms would be issued from the ship’s armory for each mission, but whether there would be a written record of such…that would be a very long shot, no pun intended.

The letter of authenticity mentioned above will give information regarding its ship date and destination, but this will be a large Naval base or station. Where is went after this would be nearly impossible to determine.

 

[Ameshawki]

The question of which individual had a particular firearm comes up frequently in the milsurp world. Short answer is there no way to know. The mil didn't keep files on individual firearms, tho many seem to think they should have. The mil cares about who has the firearm today. Who had it five years ago is information they don't need. A letter from Smith will tell you it shipped at a date to a location, probably something generic like "Transportation Officer, Port of New York". After that it's anyone's guess where it went.

The best avenue would be to recover the name plate of the aircraft. Records might exist as to where that particular TBM went. Modelers (of which I am one) love that sort of data. Websites have lists of which aircraft was in which group. An aircraft is a big enough item that records may still exist.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Archy
I wish I could be of more help. V217997 shows shipment on 1/29/1943 to U S Navy. No destination
V218977 shipped to U S Armory Springfield Mass on 1/29/1943.
This is all I have. Both show they had 4" barrels in .38 Special caliber.
Don Mundell
Assistant Historian Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation

 

[old bear]

The willingness to help the and the information provided the O.P. make me proud to belong to this Great Forum.
old bear
Aka Fred Sayre

 

[LostintheOzone]

Thanks for searching to identify KIA. That's a noble endeavor.

My dad served in the Army from 1942 to 1945. He was in N. Africa, Sicily, Italy, France and Germany. The Army has no record of his service. The only reason I know anything about his service is I have the original discharge document and a draft board record I retrieved online. I also have a documented pistol he returned with.

It doesn't surprise me that there is no record of a revolver issued to a certain individual. Even records that were supposed to be safeguarded were accidentally destroyed.

Good luck in your search.

 

[murphydog]

Thanks for searching to identify KIA. That's a noble endeavor.

My dad served in the Army from 1942 to 1945. He was in N. Africa, Sicily, Italy, France and Germany. The Army has no record of his service. The only reason I know anything about his service is I have the original discharge document and a draft board record I retrieved online. I also have a documented pistol he returned with.

It doesn't surprise me that there is no record of a revolver issued to a certain individual. Even records that were supposed to be safeguarded were accidentally destroyed.

Good luck in your search.

In 1973 there was a fire at the National Personnel Records Center in St Louis. It is estimated 16-18 million files lost.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

You folks do know about ‘The Fire.’
In Military circles It’s been a running joke for years, that record burned in da Fire!
But it a newer record after the fire.
Some of those were taken back to St. Louis and burned later!
Got it!
National Personnel Records Center fire - Wikipedia

 

[Matt_X]

Difficult but may be possible. It will require the typical pre-digitial research regimen of going through many records, many of which will not have the answer.

There are examples of surviving small arms lists that have been posted on the Carbine Collectors Club and US Militaria forums.
A ship's armory log of small arms partially shown here:
Shipboard Marines with Thompson SMG's USS HORNET CVS-12 ARMORY - ALL OTHER FIREARMS - U.S. Militaria Forum

Further discussion here:USS Hornet Armory Log Book - The Carbine Collector's Club

Based on the location of the remains, and knowing the revolver went to the Navy, you can probably decide if most likely person to have been carrying it was a Navy or Marine pilot. Then further you may be able narrow down whether the pilot could have only been carrier based, or whether he may have been based at a Marine airfield.

As discussed in the link above, it will be important to know a little more about the SOP for issuing pistols to Navy and USMC fliers (assuming the circumstances point to the deceased being a flyer.) Knowing the protocol will at least point to the most likely location of such log or inventory, and if they were archived, transferred or destroyed.

Some other examples of surviving small arms inventories with serial numbers.
Carbines Issued to Cannon Company - The Carbine Collector's Club

Unofficial Lost Carbines - The Carbine Collector's Club

 

[archy]

Thank you everyone for all this information. I have a lot to go through. I think I will start by going through some of these Carrier Air Group records we have in our archive to look for any documents about weapons issue. But like some of you said, may be impossible to find. Appreciate all the feedback, so many great responces.

 

[mikerjf]

Fascinating problem! Is DNA (specifically Y-DNA) being used at all? I’d think that for a mostly-male set that would be ideal.

 

[archy]

Fascinating problem! Is DNA (specifically Y-DNA) being used at all? I’d think that for a mostly-male set that would be ideal.

Yes we have a forensic lab and make use of DNA. The issue is getting a shortlist smaller than every missing TBM pilot lost in Taiwan. Family reference samples from the Navy can take some time to get (1-8 years in some cases), so having a shorter list of possible individuals associated makes the process easier.

 

[DWalt]

As others have stated, such revolvers saw widespread use by Navy and Marine pilots/flight crews, and also other personnel. Note that JFK had one as a PT boat commander. Generally, handguns were issued to naval flight crews before each mission, and returned to shipboard armories upon return. It would have been unusual for a naval aviator to actually have been issued a specific revolver to keep on his person. What the USMC practice was for issuance of revolvers to aviators, I have no idea. One of the main uses for such revolvers was as emergency signaling devices, via use of red tracer bullets. While it is conceivable that there may be existing records of the serial numbers of revolvers stocked in armories of specific ships, that will not help identify an aviator that carried it at the time he met his fate. I can only wish you luck in connecting the revolver to a specific aviator, especially almost 80 years after the fact.

At the very least, you can eliminate any MIAs prior to around early to mid-1943.