Are S&W Canted Barrel Problems Getting Less Frequent

[buck460XVR]

My experience was that in the past, the only guns left in the handgun case at the LGS were models with canted barrels, because folks passed on them while buying all the good ones. Same with online dealers....seemed most folks using them were getting canted barrels. I assume this is because many of those guns had been returned/refused previously and they were the only inventory left. Wasn't too long ago it was a surprise to see any new Smith in a display case. Add to the fact that demand has slowed and so has production. More time to do things right the first time. Seems in the majority of cases when folks got a barrel canted to the point they couldn't live with it, S&W was happy to fix it. I think the newer two piece barrels that come on many of the new smiths has eliminated the canting also.

 

[foytfoyt]

I agree with 686 SSR, my M 69 is flawless as is my 66-8. There must be something good about the newer shrouded barrel designs...

Yes. It is fundamental to the design.

A shrouded barrel divorces the angle that the barrel is tight from the point the sight is vertical, in that they are literally on different parts. Or perhaps that was your point.

I don't happen to own any shrouded barrel revolvers, but the other claim, often made by Dan Wesson, is that the barrel tube is now in tension, supported only at the ends, and of consistent round cross-section. This results in more consistent "ringing" of the barrel, similar to how rifle designers are always worried about the bedding and free floating of barrels.

I can't shoot well enough for this theory to make any difference to me... Some have claimed that shrouded barrels more frequently come loose. I have never seen any hard data on this, which only a gun manufacturer would have from warranty, so it may not be true.

 

[jstanfield103]

I ordered a 686 from Lipseys and when it came in it had an under clocked barrel cant. I did post pictures of it. Sent it straight back to Lipseys and after the LGS after some looking found me a 686 PC model and ordered it for me (he could not find another 686 at the time and I gave him a list and this is the first one to show up ) when it came in it was perfect. So they are probably hit and miss with most of them being perfect.

 

[Bob1943]

I am the original OP. About 2 months ago (late July 2015), an LGS received a shipment of 11 new 686 Plus models. They brought all 11 boxes out and sat them down on the counter, and told me to take my pick. All 11 had perfectly straight barrels, but all 11 were noticeably scratched up. Seems that S&W is paying more attention to the barrels, but are being a little sloppy about how they are being handled on the production line, hence all the dings in the metal.

 

[BoulderTroll]

I am the original OP. About 2 months ago (late July 2015), an LGS received a shipment of 11 new 686 Plus models. They brought all 11 boxes out and sat them down on the counter, and told me to take my pick. All 11 had perfectly straight barrels, but all 11 were noticeably scratched up. Seems that S&W is paying more attention to the barrels, but are being a little sloppy about how they are being handled on the production line, hence all the dings in the metal.

My new 686 Plus 3" that is at the LGS during the 10 day waiting period as we speak, is all scratched up, just as you are describing. When I first pulled it out of the box to examine it I thought Sportsmans Outdoor Superstore had accidently sent me a used gun, it is scratched up so bad. It's not a huge deal, because I plan on sending it in for the Combat Revolver Package anyways, so it'll come back glass beaded.

On the other hand, it has an incredibly noticeable canted barrel. On a short 3" barrel, that's saying something. When I look through the rear sights the top of the front sight post sits at an angle. I've had about 5 or so S&W revolvers over the years and this is the second very visibly canted barrel that I've bought from them. I totally agree with the folks who say that the internet blows the percentage of problems out of the water, due to being such an easy source of sharing complaints. On the other hand, I've noticed a disturbing trend of people who have never had an issue coming across as disbelieving of those who have. It's easy to ignore an issue that has never happened to you, and to say it doesn't exist.

As I said, 2 canted barrels out of 5 revolvers is not a minor thing. Add to that the fact that I don't stress over minor cosmetic issues. But in this case the issue is not cosmetic because I want to put a set of fixed aftermarket iron sights on it, and a canted barrel obviously can't be adjusted for with fixed sights. So at the end of the day, I plan on sending it to the Performance Center for the package, and also telling them I expect it to be straight when I get it back.

 

[bigfatty]

My new 686 Plus 3" that is at the LGS during the 10 day waiting period as we speak, is all scratched up, just as you are describing. When I first pulled it out of the box to examine it I thought Sportsmans Outdoor Superstore had accidently sent me a used gun, it is scratched up so bad. It's not a huge deal, because I plan on sending it in for the Combat Revolver Package anyways, so it'll come back glass beaded.

On the other hand, it has an incredibly noticeable canted barrel. On a short 3" barrel, that's saying something. When I look through the rear sights the top of the front sight post sits at an angle. I've had about 5 or so S&W revolvers over the years and this is the second very visibly canted barrel that I've bought from them. I totally agree with the folks who say that the internet blows the percentage of problems out of the water, due to being such an easy source of sharing complaints. On the other hand, I've noticed a disturbing trend of people who have never had an issue coming across as disbelieving of those who have. It's easy to ignore an issue that has never happened to you, and to say it doesn't exist.

As I said, 2 canted barrels out of 5 revolvers is not a minor thing. Add to that the fact that I don't stress over minor cosmetic issues. But in this case the issue is not cosmetic because I want to put a set of fixed aftermarket iron sights on it, and a canted barrel obviously can't be adjusted for with fixed sights. So at the end of the day, I plan on sending it to the Performance Center for the package, and also telling them I expect it to be straight when I get it back.

In 2015 I bought my first three new Smith & Wesson revolvers, two from Buds (686+ PC and 586 Classic 4") and one from Sportsmans Outdoor Superstore (Model 66). All three had canted barrels. The 686 was sent back in May and came back fixed 3 weeks later. I refused to take ownership of the 586 (lots of other issues) and had the FFL send it back. I sent my 66 back for several issues including the canted barrel/misaligned top serrations 12 days ago, and have yet to hear anything other than an email that they "received" it 6 days after they actually did. They have issues, and personally, I'm tired of them.

 

[joe44va]

I bought a M69 with the two piece barrel. An extremely nice revolver and I like the design. Perfect barrel alignment. So, I went and bought M66.
It has a canted barrel that is enough out of whack that the rear sight is adjusted 16 clicks to the left and group size is twice that of my M60. Sad but true. It's going back to the mothership.

 

[Jaymo]

To me, all 686s look like the outsides were finished by preschoolers with 24 grit sandpaper.

 

[Walky Talki]

You can always send it back to be straightened.

Last month I received a 640 Pro Series as a replacement gun from the factory and it showed up with a clocked barrel. Aggravating, but they straightened it. You'll just have to ship it back and wait several additional weeks.

Tweaked barrels come in cycles. Last year several gun shops in my area had 686s with clocked barrels. I couldn't find a straight one. Now it is the opposite, they all seem to be straight.

I guess the 686 barrel torquing machine was readjusted, but apparently the 640 barrel machine isn't due for calibration yet. It is anybody's guess on the 617 or 629 barrel machines!

Again, if you get a bent one you can send it back and they'll straighten it. Good luck and keep us posted.

Edmo

Can somebody explain how they could possibly let a gun leave the factory like that?

 

[Ashlander]

Edmo suggests that there is a "torquing machine" for the barrels. Nope, it's just a big guy with a wrench and a vice. There's a video of the Performance Center on-line. I couldn't believe my eyes.

 

[BoulderTroll]

In 2015 I bought my first three new Smith & Wesson revolvers, two from Buds (686+ PC and 586 Classic 4") and one from Sportsmans Outdoor Superstore (Model 66). All three had canted barrels.

I went and bought M66.
It has a canted barrel that is enough out of whack that the rear sight is adjusted 16 clicks to the left and group size is twice that of my M60. Sad but true. It's going back to the mothership.

I'm blown away that you guys have both had Model 66's with canted barrels. I thought the whole reason behind going to the two-piece barrel is that they aren't prone to canting problems. I can easily see why putting a barrel on perfectly straight as a solid, one piece unit would be tough with the right amount of torque. I simply can't understand how a two-piece barrel can be canted. That seems overly sloppy to me.

 

[Ashlander]

Two-piece barrels can get over-clocked by over-tightening the barrel within the outer sleeve -- the torque crushes and peens the centering tab to the edge of its slot. The metal is deformed in the process.

 

[bigfatty]

Two-piece barrels can get over-clocked by over-tightening the barrel within the outer sleeve -- the torque crushes and peens the centering tab to the edge of its slot. The metal is deformed in the process.

Exactly! Here's a photo of what has been described, and the canting:

 

[foytfoyt]

Ashlander and bigfatty,

Thank you for the valuable posts.

This is a completely different failure mode than with a canted single piece barrel.

This is simply an embarrassment for S&W.

Their design engineering department should have chosen a tab geometry adequate to ensure no yielding at the high end of the torque tolerance, while manufacturing should easily be able to control torque with a commonly available DC tool, with error proofing. This is a much easier challenge than a traditional single piece barrel installation (which is a completely different problem).

I don't know if S&W design or manufacturing is at fault, but either is an amateurish mistake. (I love S&W revolvers, which is why I want them to improve!)

 

[Hopper]

I have a new 686 3" coming my way shortly. Two of my three S&W's were sightly clocked. My 640 was the worst, I sent that back to the mothership, and it came back within micrometers (if that) of being perfect. My NM66 is off by not quite half a groove. I'm not completely OK with it, but it's dead-on at the range, so I'm leaving it alone. My other NM66, which has a more current 2015 build date than my 2014 66, is perfectly aligned.

Really, really hoping for a straight barrel when the 686 is delivered to my FFL. <crossing fingers>

 

[rwsmith]

I'll cross mine too....

Really, really hoping for a straight barrel when the 686 is delivered to my FFL. <crossing fingers>

I would hope that S&W would take this simple message seriously. I hate talking about stuff like this about my favorite gun manufacturer. It's like buying a nice car and having the hood visibly crooked and having to look at it every time you drive it. What's more, take it back to the dealer and they say that it's 'in spec'.

 

[frankcr]

With the pictured gun being off 1/2 a groove, does it still shoot to point of aim? I could not imagine it being many degrees from the proper position and a sight adjustment should correct the problem although it should not have come that way.

You can see the damage to the key seat in your pictures, so somebody really put the torque or a shock to it during installation. Stainless resists compression very well.

 

[BoulderTroll]

What's more, take it back to the dealer and they say that it's 'in spec'.

I agree, being told it is "in spec" is aggravating. What is even more aggravating is when the customer service rep for a major firearms company basically calls you a liar when you describe the problem with the gun. I had that happen with a well known and respected company (although with a poor customer service reputation), I told them that the first range trip with my new rifle, the bolt handle literally fell off in my hand while closing the bolt during normal firing. The rep told me almost straight out that I was lying, and that I mush have been "banging the stock on the ground, trying to get a stuck shell case out with the bolt handle". I told him I was gently closing the bolt. He told me to ship the rifle to them so they could "see what really happened", and that I was going to have to pay shipping both ways. I told him that he was smoking crack (a little more politely), and that his supervisor would likely be more receptive than he was.

After two more phone calls to two levels of supervisors, I was apologized to profusely (they said they'd actually listened to my initial call), they sent me shipping labels for both directions, and put a new bolt on and test fired it. After looking at the bolt handle it was clear it had been welded on exceptionally poorly.

Long story short, it sure leaves a sour taste in your mouth when a company doesn't stand behind their products. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have companies like SIG and LaRue Tactical, who go WAY above and beyond when it comes to customer service issues.

 

[bigfatty]

With the pictured gun being off 1/2 a groove, does it still shoot to point of aim? I could not imagine it being many degrees from the proper position and a sight adjustment should correct the problem although it should not have come that way.

You can see the damage to the key seat in your pictures, so somebody really put the torque or a shock to it during installation. Stainless resists compression very well.

It's off by more than half a groove; look at how the ends of the lines on the frame serrations veer off left, instead of going straight at the ends. It's a major annoyance to look at, and would kill the resale value should I ever decide to sell it. I didn't fire the gun. I emailed S&W pictures immediately, got no response, then called them the following Monday and initiated the pickup process. It also has numerous dings and gouges, and is missing the front sight pin. Due to the canting, the edge of the barrel shroud is protruding into the ejector rod channel. And, of course, you've seen the pic as to the damaged "key seat" you mentioned. Lastly, there are circular scratch lines (like you'd see on a fired cylinder) along the ejector rod, a bit below the knob. When pushing the rod in, it starts meeting resistance 75-80% down. I tried that out when I saw the scratches, since it is obviously hitting something inside the cylinder. I oiled it, and it didn't help. Slight bend in the rod somewhere?

No way I'd accept this, so why bother firing it? It went right back.

EDIT (to add): No, by eye sight the front blade didn't appear to be extremely off left. If that were the only defect, and it wasn't a two piece barrel with the mismatched serrations, damage and protrusion into the ejector rod channel, I probably would've tried adjusting the sight to the right to see if it fired reasonable groups and keeping it if it did. But, I know that if I were looking to buy a used revolver and saw those serrations ... instant deal breaker on a used gun.

 

[bigfatty]

I agree, being told it is "in spec" is aggravating. What is even more aggravating is when the customer service rep for a major firearms company basically calls you a liar when you describe the problem with the gun. I had that happen with a well known and respected company (although with a poor customer service reputation), I told them that the first range trip with my new rifle, the bolt handle literally fell off in my hand while closing the bolt during normal firing. The rep told me almost straight out that I was lying, and that I mush have been "banging the stock on the ground, trying to get a stuck shell case out with the bolt handle". I told him I was gently closing the bolt. He told me to ship the rifle to them so they could "see what really happened", and that I was going to have to pay shipping both ways. I told him that he was smoking crack (a little more politely), and that his supervisor would likely be more receptive than he was.

After two more phone calls to two levels of supervisors, I was apologized to profusely (they said they'd actually listened to my initial call), they sent me shipping labels for both directions, and put a new bolt on and test fired it. After looking at the bolt handle it was clear it had been welded on exceptionally poorly.

Long story short, it sure leaves a sour taste in your mouth when a company doesn't stand behind their products. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have companies like SIG and LaRue Tactical, who go WAY above and beyond when it comes to customer service issues.

I've owned a LOT of Sigs. Never a problem with their classic series 226 or 220, but I had huge problems with several 1911's and P938's ... the vast majority of them, in fact. However, Sig took ownership of the problems and either properly fixed or replaced the problem guns. Still a pain in the butt, but you know they'll take care of you.

Sadly, it looks like they've all thrown QC out the window and are using customers for that purpose, so the quality of gun manufacturer's customer service and repair departments are becoming the measuring stick of a "good" company. Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.