Are we drawing are guns too soon?

[sirrduke2010]

I have seen several scenarios where there is a good reason to draw a weapon on a potential attacker but I have also seen in certain situations where I feel that different tactics could have been used first. I see where people could have tried to avoid the situation in a better way. I have actually read some scenarios where the potential victim has drawn their weapon before they have tried anything else or they put themselves in harms way so they had to draw their weapon. I see drawing a weapon as a last resort and not a first one. Actually you can get charged with brandishing a weapon if it doesn't appear that you have the right to show the weapon and possibly even assault with a deadly weapon if you point it at what you see as a potential attacker without just cause.

I am not saying all the people on here do it but I do see alternatives to drawing your weapon at times. I see it also as a risk of using it sooner than if the weapon wasn't drawn. The witnesses around you could speak against you if they see your defensive posture in a different way than you do.

I read one person's account of how he drew his weapon in his car with a potential attacker approaching him. He then lowered his window to face the person. This is the exact opposite of what I learned in self defense. You can lower the window down to a crack. If the person was threatening I would drive to the local police station but don't get out of your car. I watched a motor rider having a squabble with a car driver. He walked over the person in the car and indicated for the driver to lower his window down. He did and the motorcycle rider hit him in the face.

Avoiding a confrontation is always better if you can do it. Trying to talk the guy down first or use some verbal judo to reduce the tension and protect yourself as well. I know somebody is going to tell me I don't know I am talking about again. Avoid and don't be there are the cornerstones of where self defense begins. Caution has to be taken on what you say to people and even the words you use could get you into a fight. A red button for gang members disrespect and if somehow they perceive you talking to them in a disrespectful way you could have a fight on your hands. One simple way to avoid a confrontation is to use the word I instead of using the word you. You is accusatory and can get yourself into a confrontation.

You know I watch the Martial Art conversations about self defense and since they have been trained it is almost as if they wait for an opportunity to use what they learn. Are a few of the people carrying weapons doing the same thing? Are they looking for opportunities to be able to brandish or use their weapons if a possible confrontation ensues? You don't know how someone is going to react if you pull a gun on someone. If they are rational they will probably back down but if they are crazy they could charge you. I know of an account of a man that drew a weapon on a gang member and that gang member charged him with a knife even though the man had a gun.

In conclusion, don’t go looking for a confrontation so that you can pull your weapon. Even if you do get your weapon out in time the attacker could have a hidden partner that you don’t see. Carefully choose the words you use and the actions you take so that a confrontation can be avoided. I wanted to say I am not talking about all people but I have seen some stories that make me think an alternative may have been possible. I see drawing a weapon as a last resort or if there isn't any other way to handle the situation. I have seen cases or stories where drawing a weapon and evening firing a weapon are justified in self defense. I am not talking about all people but a few people who may have been able do something different to avoid a confrontation.

 

[Out West]

I suppose that when confronted, each of us will have to make our own determination of the appropriate response and "hypothetical" will take a walk.

Out
West

 

[Kanewpadle]

Stories are just that. Stories. Since we weren't there, we can only speculate.

Discussing scenario's has proven to be a waste of time. Situational Awareness, Readiness, and Mindset will enable one to prevail.

 

[thndrchiken]

Back at it with the what if's.....

 

[cmort666]

It depends entirely on the situation.

In Ohio, if not in home or vehicle, I'm required to ATTEMPT to withdraw. That's all. I have ZERO duty to run away, only TRY to leave.

Once I'm threatened with a weapon or a disparity of force attack starts, the time for talk or much of anything else besides vigorous defense is OVER.

My personal well-being will ALWAYS take precedence over the welfare of somebody endangering it.

If you WEREN'T willing to get shot, why did you put me in immediate and reasonable fear of life and limb in the first place?

Personally, I'm one for keeping my firearm concealed until the last minute. Once it comes out, it's probably going to get used, and not to warn or threaten. People who hesitate AFTER drawing seem to be the ones mostly likely to be injured or killed by an assailant.

 

[cmort666]

Back at it with the what if's.....

Training is nothing BUT "what ifs".

The difference between effective training and pointless noodling is the difference between training for the likely and training for the ridiculous.

I'm interested in hearing what people have done or would do in a street robbery situation, or how to deal with the police. Not so much zombies driving Tiger IIs.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

(Deleted link)

This answers the OP's question. It is also a good reminder for everyone who lives where they don't get reminders on a regular basis.

 

[venomballistics]

we still have gangs and thuggery still seems in fashion ... draw soon and draw often.

 

[WC145]

Better to draw too soon than too late.

 

[Goldstar225]

I'll agree with most of what you're saying, avoidance, de-escalation, other options.

I disagree that the deployment of a weapon should be the last resort. That statement always implies that the person should first apply or attempt to apply lesser means before going to deadly force. That's not always a viable option. You may not be able to safely withdraw, use persuasion, non-lethal physical force or other techniques due to the speed of the attack, determination of the agressor, or physical abilities, to name a few.

Each situation is unique unto itself and can only be assessed by the person involved subject to a review (investigation) by the police and prosecutor. Absent political or agenda driven motivations, as long as the use of force meets existing legal standards and the person has acted reasonably under the circumstances, "woulda, coulda, shoulda" doesn't matter.

 

[venomballistics]

Training is nothing BUT "what ifs".

The difference between effective training and pointless noodling is the difference between training for the likely and training for the ridiculous.

I'm interested in hearing what people have done or would do in a street robbery situation, or how to deal with the police. Not so much zombies driving Tiger IIs.

yeah cause we all know that Zombies drive T 72's due to availability over tigers
it is as it always will be ... prepare for the probable and adapt to the exceptions if and when they come.
likely ... a few chemically enhanced thugs converge upon you during a routine task such as entering your vehicle...
A crack squad of Mall ninjas rappelling down the sides of surrounding buildings with air support ... not very likely

 

[BurgerBoy]

I have had to draw 3 times now and that was all it took. Once they saw the gun they ran fast as the could to get away from me and it was all over without me having to do anything else.

 

[snub56]

To answer the question, are we drawing are guns to soon ? I would say no if we were you would hear all over the news about people waving guns around for no reason. Since you don't see that for the most part, I think it is safe to conclude that the vast majority of legal gun owners draw when they have to.

 

[OFT II]

Are we drawing guns too soon? I think that depends on what happened, case by case. You certainly don't want to draw too late, do you?

 

[cmort666]

I have had to draw 3 times now and that was all it took. Once they saw the gun they ran fast as the could to get away from me and it was all over without me having to do anything else.

The one time I had to point a firearm at someone (an HK93A3), he took off going about 100mph.

Just don't assume that will happen every time and be ready to do what's required if it doesn't.

 

[Jinseru]

I have to give my two cents here because this is something I have thought of in the past. It seems like people who don't have any FORMAL training are the ones most likely to draw at an unnecessary time. The ones with Military/LEO training are the ones who usually think the situation through and have the know how to use other tactics to de-escalate the situation. It's because of that thought I believe that anyone attempting to get a CCW permit or any firearm permit for that matter, should be required to take a formal class that will not only teach you how to use the weapon, but how to use other methods to AVOID needing to use that weapon. And let's be honest, if 2 people, exact in every way BESIDES formal training were to go to court for drawing down on someone, and they both argued the same case, the person with the formal training can argue that they were trained well enough to know that there was no other alternative, while the person without the training can not. Then how do you convict someone who has the know how to be 100% sure that their decision was the right one for their situation?

But to answer the overall question. How can you be drawing too soon when you were the one who decided to draw? Obviously before you draw the weapon, you've made the decision that I need this out. The bigger question here is, could the situation be handled in a different way if the person had the training to know what to do. And the answer is most certainly yes in most situations, formal training could have altered the end result almost indefinitely.

 

[xray97]

The one time I had to point a firearm at someone (an HK93A3), he took off going about 100mph.

Just don't assume that will happen every time and be ready to do what's required if it doesn't.

I think that this is a very important consideration. IMO don't draw the gun unless you're justified and ready to use it. Don't ever use a gun as a bluff, believe me there are those who will call your bluff. That does not mean that you can't prepare to draw if a situation is threatening or ambiguous. Whether a situation dictates using deadly force can be different for all of us. Age, physical condition, location, etc can all come into play. If YOU fear that your life is in danger or YOU are at risk of grievous bodily injury AND that fear is REASONABLE then you are probably safe from criminal prosecution (in Wa.). I would not draw my weapon unless the situation fit those "tests". Once I have reached that point and drawn my gun, the threat to my life better cease, or I will use all means available to alleviate the threat. Again, that does not mean I would not prepare, mentally and physically, in a threatening situation that had not yet reached the deadly force point (hand on gun mentally prepared to draw and fire if " this or this" happens).

 

[sirrduke2010]

The Police are trained to try to de-escalate first.

They have studies showing that a policeman that first tries to de-escalate a situation has a better chance of the encounter turning out peacefully. I have read distinct actions by individuals who put themselves in harms way so they had to draw their weapon. This isn't about "what ifs" it is about learning to handle a situation so it doesn't become violent. Obviously some haven't read the whole essay I wrote. Yes there are times that drawing a weapon is necessary to protect one's self but unfortunately with our legal system they may not see your actions as self defense. The way you handle a confrontation is situation dependent. The minute you draw you weapon there is a greater chance you will use it.

In conclusion what I am suggesting is that acting in a non-violent manner if you can at all possible is preferable to pulling a weapon. There are times when you may need to pull a weapon because of an impending lethal threat or someone that appears dangerous because he is acting crazy. I am sorry if some people think that I am talking about the rare "what ifs" but your mistake could put you in prison or get you killed. From a few of the stories I have read some people put themselves in harms way so they had to draw their weapon. I have seen people in some stories actually go to the point of baiting there attackers so they will have to pull a weapon when their antagonist responds. I have seen some Martial Artists do the exact same thing. Instead of walking away they choose the confrontation as an opportunity to use what they have learned in Martial Arts. YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOUR THREAT IS ARMED AS WELL OR HAS ACCOMPLISHES NEARBY TO ASSIST HIM IN THE POTENTIAL CONFRONTATION YOU MAY HAVE. The obvious thinking appears to be that I am the only one with a gun and you don't know that. I think the one thing that people forget is just because you shoot someone doesn't mean you will stop them or even hit them. I also think that some appear to be very dependent on their guns to handle all confrontations. Avoiding a confrontation is a much better way than by potentially escalating a tense situation by pulling a weapon. I have also seen some appropriate times when a weapon is drawn and have seen it be very helpful. I am merely suggesting an alternative tact be used if possible rather than drawing your weapon in a confrontation if you don't need to.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Your over thinking things a bit my friend.

We cannot possibly know or predict what kinds of events that may unfold and come our way.

All we can do is prepare. But prepare in a flexible manner so we can overcome and adapt as Marines do.

But to do this, and I say this again, Mindset, Situational Awareness, and Readiness will enable us to act/react BEFORE that imaginary line in the sand is crossed.

As said by instructor Dave Spaulding, we cannot simply hope to survive. We must Prevail. We must Win. To survive and end up in a wheel chair is unacceptable.

Successfully defending yourself with a gun is only the beginning.

 

[oldman45]

It will all depend on the perception of the permitee. People perceive things differently. An armed robber may not threaten someone in a robbery but those being robbed may perceive a gun pointed at them as a threat, as a sign of sincerity or deperation.

Drawing a gun is or should be a last resort. Early deployment can cause a lot of legal problems and that may be the better thing.