Army looking for a new handgun

[Doug M.]

For a reasonable cost, they could go COTS with M&P9s; they can be had with ambi thumb safeties that are actually ergonomically sound, and decent holsters like the Safariland ALS system. RDS options, suppressors, and all sorts of useful things are readily available. That is unlikely. The only thing less likely is my name being sent to the Senate as nominee for Chair of JCS.

Given the fearful mindset of the average person who will be involved (O8+ and assistant secretaries), they will spec another pistol that does not serve the intended purpose; they will have gawdawful "training" that barely counts as familiarization; they will allow or even mandate clownshoes holsters, and they will have policies that are so far off the mark that it would be much more cost effective to issue ball peen hammers. And that is the good news.

We need a barf emoticon, BTW.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Why do they have a handgun. For Officers, To save your bacon when you are changing a mag. To hold on prisoners. What else? Doctors Nurses Supply staff?

I would wager that Sgt. York and Sgt. Basilone could answer that one if they were still alive.

I watched The Lone Survivor last night for the first time. It was gut-wrenching to watch one of our SEALs empty his rifle and then make a desperate and futile last stand armed with that pitiful Beretta 9mm pistol, shooting and shooting without much effect until his slide locked back on his last magazine. I'd be willing to bet if he had placed his shots with a .45, the results would be far more favorable than watching multiple 9mm hardball hits with no immediate results.

The pistol is for close range self-protection, and if the round it chambers is not capable of that, one might as well have a slingshot.

John

 

[shawn mccarver]

Maybe it won't be a SIG:

BBC News - 'Export ban' for arms maker SIG Sauer over Colombia guns

===
Nemo

Did anyone catch the SIG 2022 pictured in the article? It had an interesting looking THUMB SAFETY on the slide. If, and this is a big "if" the model pictured is an example of the pistol sold to the Colombian police, one wonders why 65,000 of them would have been shipped here as the 2022 is not marketed here for commercial sales with that feature. I wonder if the "investigators" involved in this bit of idiocy* have enough knowledge of the subject to ask the right questions.

I do not wish ill upon anyone, but wouldn't it be ironic if the GERMAN government denied needed export permits thereby depriving the Federal ninja its "brand of choice?" (I know SIG claims its pistols are now made in the U.S., but do they mean the slides are machined here, or the entire pistol? At one time, it was just part of the pistol that was made here, and the frames were still imported.)

Could be a win-win for the other federal LE pistol brand of choice: HK.

Too bad the federal LE people don't "buy American."

*I say idiocy since the sale was purportedly to Colombian POLICE. Now, maybe the cops down there are just an extension of the drug cartel people, and if so, shame on SIG. On the other hand, if they think denial of an "export permit" will prevent the cops (crooked or not) in Colombia from obtaining weapons, then they are sillier over there in the Merkel government than our government people here. Silliness in bureaucracies seems to be one constant in this universe. I suppose the Germans are fully staffed with as many dullards as is Washington, D.C.

 

[Ozarker]

I believe a few months ago Guns & Ammo had a article about the replacement issue. Also quick story line opened earlier. I was a SSgt when my CO said for me to check out a weapon from supply. I was to be his payroll guard. I was issued one .45 with holster. Nothing else. I ask for a mag and some ammo. Supply Sgt said no that was all the CO authorized.

I followed him around for hours with a empty weapon.

 

[mrrick]

"Given the present "thinking" in Washington, they will probably melt them down."

No, more likely give them to the cartels south of the border.

 

[gunhobbit]

I'd be willing to bet if he had placed his shots with a .45, the results would be far more favorable than watching multiple 9mm hardball hits with no immediate results.

I'd be willing to bet that if he placed his shots with a 9mm, the results would have been more favorable.

Sorry, guys, but a handgun is what you carry when you can't carry a real gun ... or so you can have a chance to fight your way to the real gun you SHOULD have been carrying in the first place.

Go google up the ER guy talking about how you cannot really tell the difference in a handgun gunshot wound without finding the bullet.

 

[JohnSW]

but a Glock 17 or 19 would be a fine replacement. I'm still speaking as a soldier.

BBC: "Glock 17 9mm pistols replace Browning for UK forces"

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-20978842

 

[Hill_Country]

I was at a gunfight one time. Two guys, one in front of the other and just slightly offset. Two rounds of .38 spl ball. The taller guy caught a round just below the chin and was DRT. The short guy got it in the chin, must have had the mother of all headaches, but lived. That was pretty good shot placement in my book, but it makes me think that it takes shot placement AND knockdown power to do the job. One without the other ain't nothin'.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Couple of points:

I think this "debate" contains a misunderstanding:

All,I can say is, when I was in the Army, they paid in cash. The pay officer would draw a .45 and 5 rounds of ammunition, which was NOT to be loaded into the pistol. Condition 1, my butt.

You know, I'd already acknowledged I misunderstood another member's comments, so there was no need for your smart-aleck reply about "Condition 1, my butt".

It's still called Condition 1, whether you like it or not.

I think the "Condition 1, my butt" is not a reference to Condition 1 itself or that name but to the fact that the paymaster was given a 1911, 5 rounds of ammunition, and the pistol remained unloaded!!!! I don't know what you call that condition, maybe Condition X? I saw this many times myself back in the day so I am pretty sure that's what the remark is directed at.

As for that SIG 2022, I wish I was home so I could look at my 2022 but I think it has the same decocker (not a safety) as in that photograph. The US Army supposedly bought 5000 2022s for the tank crews. It's a nice gun, actually (my sole polymer pistol - I prefer metal handguns), but I like my 3rd Gen S&Ws better.

Handguns for military service personnel really serve, as a rule, as last resort, backup guns and symbols of authority. Nobody deliberately goes into a combat situation armed solely with a handgun.

***GRJ***

 

[Doug M.]

Another consideration is whether any pistol round will reliably penetrate the gear many military personnel wear on their chests now, and whether any will do better than any other. We will not always be in Jihadistan.

 

[Big Shrek]

Those that are issued the 9mm, want more power than 9mm.
That should be enough to get the problem resolved.
After-action reports in Iraq/Afghanistan showing 4+ round average with pistols
needed to stop BG's...mind you, that's Stop, not necessarily Kill.

Its down to this...the reason the 1911 was brought Into service was due
to the lousy performance of .38LC vs the Moros.
Alrighty, taking this to the next step, .38LC vs .38Spl...
.38 Long Colt: 150 grain bullet at 770 fps
.38 Special: 158 grain bullet at 755 fps
Why is that important??
Well, LEO's in the 80's wanted semi-auto pistols, revolvers weren't cutting it...
they were getting clobbered in the Drug Wars of the time...so they asked for weapons
that were equal to or better in performance than the .38SPL widely used at the time...
what they almost got was a long-mag Luger
As it turned out, some smart folks figured out that 9mm fit nicely in double-stack mags...
and made for a LOT of firepower in a small package, compared to the old .38/.357's,
Enter the era of the Wondernine.

Here's where it gets fun...grab a box of Fiocchi in each and read it...
9mm 124-grain gets 1200FPS
.38Spl 125-grain gets 970FPS
Ah, the light comes on and you see why 9mm suddenly got so popular...
well, that & the 15+ rd mags...

Still...it has the same drawback as the .38spl...small wound hole.
Its great if it hits a vital organ or CNS, but anything that isn't instantly lethal
leaves the BG able to do some more dirty work...especially if he's on drugs.

So now, they realize that Thompson-LaGaurde &
John Moses Browning were correct, Bigger Bullets, Modern Powder!!
As much as the 38LC was upstaged by .45acp,
9mm is upstaged by, well, dang near everything newer..
including .22TCM.

Meet the modern .45acp...Buffalo Bore goodness
185-grain bullet, 1198 FPS...and a Much Bigger Wound Track...

Granted, its an E-6+ & O-1+ pistol...few others will use it.
But of those who are going to use it, want serious knockdown power.
.45acp with modern powders is the way to go.

In the very least, they need to move up to .40S&W,
even though I feel its the Short & Wimpy brother of 10mm

 

[Smith-Nut]

Another consideration is whether any pistol round will reliably penetrate the gear many military personnel wear on their chests now, and whether any will do better than any other. We will not always be in Jihadistan.

People in "Jihadistan" carry lots of AK magazines on the. Hest etc. So no big difference. FMJ is actually not a bad choice when it comes to a military sidearm

 

[dsink]

With respect to the M1911/M1911A1 being too complicated for the average soldier - I guess the troops in WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam were WAY more intelligent? They seemed to handle it pretty well.

As for the military insisting on empty chamber, loaded magazine carry, that was no real hindrance to fast action in spite of the stupidity of the edict. When I was a kid, I saw an old Army Master Sgt. load and fire his 1911A1 from the holster when it was in that condition. It was on the old TV show "You asked for it." The old leather holsters had a projection inside. If the gun was twisted just right, jacked up and down in the holster, it would then emerge from the holster loaded, cocked and ready to fire. He was blazing fast; a blink of the eye and he was on target with one in the pipe. If you weren't inclined to such "cheating," it still didn't take long to jack the slide in the normal manner - providing you had two usable hands.

I carried a .45 - my own - on both active duty and in the National Guard with a loaded magazine but empty chamber in accordance with regs. I never felt underarmed or at any disadvantage. I had complete confidence in the reliability and accuracy of the gun, and in my ability to make effective .45 caliber holes in whatever I might have chosen to shoot.

When you're using ball (FMJ) ammo, bigger IS better. Look up Alvin York on the internet to see why he received the MOH for his work with an M1911. He managed to put down six Germans who charged him with fixed bayonets with one.

John

(c) 2014 JLM

I dont think it has ever been proven that York used a 1911. I have read that it was a Luger, P38 and a 1911. No one to my knowledge has ever proven it without a doubt.

 

[gm272gs]

Why can't we just all carry an M4 and get along?

I like that the USMC is apparently moving back to the M1911, even if it is a sand-colored series 80 abortion with a "tactical" rail.

 

[mjr]

I dont think it has ever been proven that York used a 1911. I have read that it was a Luger, P38 and a 1911. No one to my knowledge has ever proven it without a doubt.

Well, the P38 wasn't fielded until twenty years after World War I ended, so you can scratch that one off your list of possibles.

 

[dsink]

Well, the P38 wasn't fielded until twenty years after World War I ended, so you can scratch that one off your list of possibles.

True lol. Coffee hadnt kicked in yet when I typed that.

 

[BigBill]

Wasn't a large order just placed with colt for desert tan colored 1911's in 45acp?

Why did they ever switch from the 1911 in 45acp anyhoo. The 9mm luger and the 223 round isn't doing its job. We're beginning to just wound the enemy and not kill them. This is war any dead enemy is one taken out of action not to fight again. We're too humane.

 

[PALADIN85020]

I dont think it has ever been proven that York used a 1911. I have read that it was a Luger, P38 and a 1911. No one to my knowledge has ever proven it without a doubt.

Not so. In the past few years, a search for cartridge casings in the exact spot where York conducted this feat yielded a number of .45 ACP cases, headstamped "17" for 1917. The experts are 100% sure these came from York's M1911, exactly as he described it. The "Luger" **** came from the movie "Sgt. York" starring Gary Cooper, where the prop men gave him a Luger to re-enact the feat. The P.38 did not even exist at the time of York's accomplishment.

John

 

[JohnSW]

(The linked article) "The Army began working with the small arms industry on MHS in early 2013, but the effort has been in the works for more than five years."

I wonder how many years it will take for the Army to make a decision.

 

[scattershot]

Dunno that I will live that long.