ATF attempting to come after private sellers...

[Magnum_PI]

Maybe, just maybe, an FFL that can’t complete fairly simple paperwork with 100% accuracy doesn’t need to be selling guns. You wouldn’t tolerate those errors from your bank, mortgage company, or the convenience store from which you buy gas, coffee and beer. There’s a couple threads in the Lounge about members tipping a penny and ripping a new one for restaurant servers that don’t get water to them in a timely manner . . .

With due respect, these places you mentioned often do make errors, amd quite frequently. 2008 recession and housing crisis brought on by the banks and bad lending procedures comes to mind, but hey, the government bailed *most* of them out, so then that's okay...?

On the topic of restaurant servers, sometimes it's deserved. I enjoy a nice meal out once in a while with the wife. Some of them are lazy beyond belief and give you really bad service... Of course, situation dependant. Do I judge the whole place, based on a bad server? No. I speak to the manager and air my issues like a civilized man.

Do I give everyone in every industry an instant free pass when errors are made? Absolutely not. However, I wouldn't threaten them with say pulling their business license (essentially) over what might amount to minor issues.

It's just another bite at the apple for these people. If it gets shot down in the courts, they'll just come up with another scheme down the line. They won't stop. When we "compromise", as another so rightly pointed out, we lose, they don't. I stand firm in my beliefs and this country's founding core principles.

I don't think the Founder's ideas of what this country could be and should be could be much more clearer. For those that hate it here, as the antis seem to, I never understood why they don't just leave...

 

[Mbrgr1]

Exactly.......

These people will stop at nothing to disarm us all... you know, for our protection... and stuff...

Mr. Lewis said it best.


“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

 

[Sistema1927]

The good folks in Lexington and Concord were more than willing to submit to British "background checks".

Just kidding. They shot the ********.

 

[Muss Muggins]

So the first time an employee transposes two numbers in a serial number the FFL should lose their license?

Sounds reasonable... and 'common sense'.

Where’s the line?

 

[Rodan]

Where’s the line?

A long way in the rearview... when someone decided the problem was inanimate objects and law abiding citizens and we stopped treating violent criminals as the real problem.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Duly noted, non responsive, I wish you well . .

A long way in the rearview... when someone decided the problem was inanimate objects and law abiding citizens and we stopped treating violent criminals as the real problem.

 

[BSA1]

To be honest, the basis of the bill, (I haven't read every sentence), I have no problem with. In my state, we go through an FFL for every handgun transaction. That being said, when I attend shows out of state and watch one guy just handing his handgun to someone he doesn't know, it's frightening. I've been in law enforcement. There's no background checks being done in that state. Maybe that is a loophole where felons are buying guns and if so, should be stopped. I sell to and from an FFL in my state, always have, keep records, and have no trouble doing so. If it helps stop bad guys from getting their hands on one, so be it. Just my opinion, of course. I'm a gunny, but a law abiding one.

Please don't call me Karen!!!

@Dave Baird please give a straightforward answer to this simple question;

Why are you afraid (or frightened to use your word) of me buying a firearm(s) without the permission of the Government?

 

[BC38]

Whether or not a particular person is a “convicted felon” is a sliding scale, and not something to be permanently memorialized at any point in time. We should concentrate more on documenting the truly mentally ill . . .

...and the criminally inclined - as evidenced by their established record of criminal behavior.

 

[BC38]

Due to your nasty comments, I'm going to vote for it!

Well BULLY for you!
Based on the so-called "logic" of your previous statments you were going to vote for it anyway.
So nothing lost in this case....

 

[BC38]

what makes this proposed rule so egregious is that they refuse to assign numbers. There is no concrete definition. Everything involves a sliding scale, considering an incalculable number of factors, all culminating with a "We'll know it when we see it" answer. Just like the frames and receivers and brace rules. They refuse to give a concrete answer.

There is no way for you or I to know if we are in compliance. They probably want it that way.

Yup, rules with no defintions are a very effective tool for tyrants.
It pretty much boils down to "It is illegal because WE say it is illegal".

What ever happened to us being a nation of LAWS - vs a nation of "vague rules"?

 

[bushmaster1313]

The proposed rules exempt selling and buying to “enhance” a collection. Sometimes collectors sell and buy to downgrade a collection.

Note. The exemption for personal collections does not include self defense.

Proposed rule here
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/rulemaking/atf-eib-nprm-engaged-business-dealer-firearms/download

 

[BC38]

But until that fact is recognized by the government/law enforcement, at least in regards to how it applies to firearms purchases, it is a viable solution that adds a measure of safety to private firearms sales.

The reality of the issue is this; the government is not interested in curbing crime or keeping guns “out of the wrong hands “. That’s why the majority of gun laws are tailored to affect the law abiding and make gun ownership onerous. The government does not want private citizens owning firearms. PERIOD! They just understand that to say so out loud would be political suicide. Therefore they attack the 2nd Amendment in piecemeal ways. City by city, county by county, state by state! Simple, reliable, effective measures would undermine the government’s ability to attack the 2nd Amendment. That’s why they don’t support effective measures.

I think many people are missing an important point.

That is the definition of "keeping guns out of the wrong hands" In the currrent climate, I would say that "the wrong hands" means ordinary, every day, averqage, law-abiding citizens.

Because ALL of the proposed "solutions", from our state and federal goverments, meant to address the "gun violence problem" seem to be aimed at disarming the law abiding.

But at the same time these same governmental authorities continue to make excuses for violent felons - and also continue to pass laws that turn these same violent criminals loose to prey on society, without even requiring them to so much as post a cash bond.

So, I have to ask you, who do the powers-that-be REALLY regard as being "the wrong hands" when it comes to posaessing firearms?

Criminals? Or law-abiding citizens?

 

[BC38]

I remember that 25 years ago the government was so proud that they reduced the number of FFL licensees. They told many thousands of people that they didn't need a license if they weren't a full-time store and only made "occasional sales"

Around that time they were starting the instant check system for dealers. I wondered then if they realized they were undermining the purpose of the instant check.

And now they are trying to change the definitions AGAIN to say that if you sell a few guns for more than you paid for them YOU ARE IN EFFECT AN FFL and should have a FFL license. The same FFL license that they went after eliminating just a few years ago. What they called a "kitchen table FFL".

So what do they want? For everyone who buys and sells a few guns at a small profit to have an FFL license? Or to eliminate FFL licenses for people who really aren't in the "business" of buying and selling firearms?

Or do they just want to discourage all buying and selling of firearms PERIOD?

The answer seems pretty obvious considering the conflicting messages that the BATFE is and has been sending.

 

[BC38]

I repeat "There is no way for you or I to know if we are in compliance. They probably want it that way."

Agreed. It is really easy for them to say you are guilty of something when your guilt or innocence is defined by THEM at the point when they decide to accuse you of a crime - or better yet, even after the fact.

 

[BC38]

Just think-If guns are harder to get by the crooks guess who will step in to fill the need. The Cartels! They will just change over from humans and dope to semi auto handguns and AR’s. Anyone who thinks different has their head in their dufflebag as the Seventh Day Adventists said when I was in basic at Ft. Polk in 67.

Yeah, the real-life Obama-era "Operation Fast & Furious" (not to be confused with HollyWeird's "Fast & Furious" franchise of the same name) was ample evidence of that....

 

[BC38]

So the first time an employee transposes two numbers in a serial number the FFL should lose their license?

Sounds reasonable... and 'common sense'.

Yeah, or the first time a customer answers a question incorrectly (the customer's answers can't be corrected or changed on the current version of the electronic NICS form) then the FFL deserves to be punished for that too - right?
Because it is an error in filling out the "simple" forms...

 

[BC38]

I would have responded to half the posts here, but we’ve devolved into “What the 2nd Amendment means to me . . . “ which is a clear violation of the rules. In addition, there is no active legislation or court case to comment upon, another clear violation of the rules. Peace out, y’all, and any replies are duly noted . . .

Yeah, peace out Muss.
Anyone who's been around for very long has a pretty good idea exactly where you stand on the 2nd for us plebes who are non-LEOs.
You've more than made your position clear over the years.
Duly noted...

 

[BC38]

Mr. Lewis said it best.


“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

...because THEY know what is best for all of us....

 

[Racer X]

So the first time an employee transposes two numbers in a serial number the FFL should lose their license?

Sounds reasonable... and 'common sense'.

At least 2 shops I do transfers through have a second person go through the paperwork to verify everything. They initial the paperwork as well.

 

[old tanker]

Where’s the line?

How about at willful and deliberate?

Selling guns off book, looking the other way at obvious straw purchases are a lot different than the inspector deciding that "E. 154th St" and "East 154th St" are not same road. Or mistaking a Z for a 2 or an S for a 5 because someone doesn't write like a draftsman.