Babi Yar

[Beemerguy53]

Some interesting exchanges on here, and arguments I've heard before, from various people...the question always boils down to: Why is the event we call "The Holocaust" treated so specially, when history has been marked by many massacres in many countries?

Here's my answer when someone asks that question: The Holocaust is unique because of its motivation, its intent, and its scope.

Unlike purges and oppression carried out for the purpose of consolidating power and maintaining control over a population, the Nazis targeted Jews solely for the "crime" of being Jewish. People who posed no threat to their conquerors were murdered for no reason other than their faith. (So entrenched was Nazi anti-Semitism that it was in many respects self-defeating; for example, the book I referenced earlier recounts how cobblers sent from Germany to the Eastern front to repair the boots of German soldiers were killed upon their arrival when it was discovered they were Jewish.) To be sure, the Third Reich murdered many other people as well, especially those who were seen as troublemakers or potential threats, but Jews were killed solely for being Jews.

The intent of the Third Reich was to exterminate European Jewry. Not conquer...not subjugate...not oppress...but wipe out. Yes, there have been other genocides, but those were largely limited to specific areas or countries. And that leads to the third difference between the Holocaust and similar events...

The scope of the Holocaust was breathtaking. Think about it: Mass murder across an entire continent -- 6,000,000 people -- carried out with the same efficiency one would associate with an industrial effort. Henry Ford mass-produced automobiles; Adolf Hitler mass-produced corpses. An entire infrastructure was developed and managed for the sole purpose of killing human beings. And these were not combatants, but the civilian population of conquered nations, many of them weak and helpless.

The brutality of the Third Reich is hard to overstate. Thousands of French civilians were executed in reprisals for insurgent attacks against Germans; POWs in the East were starved to the point where acts of cannibalism occurred; slave laborers were worked literally to death, without cessation or mercy.

I am no history expert, and I know there are those with better-informed viewpoints than mine, but I am very passionate about this subject. In only a few years, my great-grandparents' nation went from being one of the most cultured, educated, and religious countries in Europe, to being one where mothers holding their infants were shot through the head by men who were just following orders. If it happened there, it could happen anywhere, given the right circumstances...which is why we must never forget.

 

[cmort666]

I am no history expert, and I know there are those with better-informed viewpoints than mine, but I am very passionate about this subject. In only a few years, my great-grandparents' nation went from being one of the most cultured, educated, and religious countries in Europe, to being one where mothers holding their infants were shot through the head by men who were just following orders. If it happened there, it could happen anywhere, given the right circumstances...which is why we must never forget.

The pathetic truth is that there are people on the WINNING side who wish that the OTHER side had won.

They cloak their regret that the Holocaust wasn't more successful in deceitful claims that it never happened at all.

I don't suppose it should be all that surprising. If there are women who will send love letters to Charles Manson and Richard Ramirez, why not those who will send figurative missives of devotion to Hitler, Himmler and Eichmann?

 

[steveno]

I was in Germany from 1970 to 1973 and I can tell you there were people that thought Hitler was a victim of bad press. thankfully not very many of them but they were there

 

[Absalom]

Some interesting exchanges on here, and arguments I've heard before, from various people...the question always boils down to: Why is the event we call "The Holocaust" treated so specially, when history has been marked by many massacres in many countries?

Here's my answer when someone asks that question: The Holocaust is unique because of its motivation, its intent, and its scope.

Unlike purges and oppression carried out for the purpose of consolidating power and maintaining control over a population, the Nazis targeted Jews solely for the "crime" of being Jewish. People who posed no threat to their conquerors were murdered for no reason other than their faith......

I am no history expert, and I know there are those with better-informed viewpoints than mine, but I am very passionate about this subject. In only a few years, my great-grandparents' nation went from being one of the most cultured, educated, and religious countries in Europe, to being one where mothers holding their infants were shot through the head by men who were just following orders. If it happened there, it could happen anywhere, given the right circumstances...which is why we must never forget.

And I believe your last point is the most important argument why the Holocaust is special, and why it is irrelevant when the counters of corpses come up with a few million more in Stalin's column of the chart, and declare him "worse".

When Russia under Stalin and later China under Mao descended into totalitarian dictatorship and mass murder, they did so coming out of a pre-industrial, authoritarian society, largely undeveloped, largely consisting of uneducated peasants, following a period of war, civil war, and revolution.

In case of Germany, none of that applied. The economic crisis was real, but so it was in many other countries. The effects of the World War were largely alleviated, and the memory of the humiliation of Versailles was artificially kept alive by only an embittered segment of the political class. So here was one of Europe's most modern societies, fully developed and industrialized, with a democratic tradition and functioning democratic institutions, a free press, close connections to the world and a well-educated population, taking a nose-dive into the dark and ugly.

If we want to learn and take warnings from history, THAT is a precedent that should worry us and that we need to be aware of, much more so than the conditions enabling Stalin's, Mao's, or Pol Pot's rise to power and their crimes.

 

[Beemerguy53]

I was in Germany from 1970 to 1973 and I can tell you there were people that thought Hitler was a victim of bad press. thankfully not very many of them but they were there

Sadly, and outrageously, there are many Americans today who think the same way...

 

[Old TexMex]

And I believe your last point is the most important argument why the Holocaust is special, and why it is irrelevant when the counters of corpses come up with a few million more in Stalin's column of the chart, and declare him "worse".

When Russia under Stalin and later China under Mao descended into totalitarian dictatorship and mass murder, they did so coming out of a pre-industrial, authoritarian society, largely undeveloped, largely consisting of uneducated peasants, following a period of war, civil war, and revolution.

In case of Germany, none of that applied. The economic crisis was real, but so it was in many other countries. The effects of the World War were largely alleviated, and the memory of the humiliation of Versailles was artificially kept alive by only an embittered segment of the political class. So here was one of Europe's most modern societies, fully developed and industrialized, with a democratic tradition and functioning democratic institutions, a free press, close connections to the world and a well-educated population, taking a nose-dive into the dark and ugly.

If we want to learn and take warnings from history, THAT is a precedent that should worry us and that we need to be aware of, much more so than the conditions enabling Stalin's, Mao's, or Pol Pot's rise to power and their crimes.

Would the memory of slavery being kept alive, a teetering economy, a discredited media and multiple war fronts be a criteria for a government driving its citizenry to riot and chaos, and to target individuals under false labels such as homophobe, xenophobe, islamaphobe and general deplorable-ness?

 

[Old TexMex]

Yes, but unlike in Chicago, the Jews were not their own principle assailants, much less the planners of the carnage.

Point taken.

 

[JavierLaurido]

Some interesting exchanges on here, and arguments I've heard before, from various people...the question always boils down to: Why is the event we call "The Holocaust" treated so specially, when history has been marked by many massacres in many countries?

Here's my answer when someone asks that question: The Holocaust is unique because of its motivation, its intent, and its scope.

Unlike purges and oppression carried out for the purpose of consolidating power and maintaining control over a population, the Nazis targeted Jews solely for the "crime" of being Jewish. People who posed no threat to their conquerors were murdered for no reason other than their faith. (So entrenched was Nazi anti-Semitism that it was in many respects self-defeating; for example, the book I referenced earlier recounts how cobblers sent from Germany to the Eastern front to repair the boots of German soldiers were killed upon their arrival when it was discovered they were Jewish.) To be sure, the Third Reich murdered many other people as well, especially those who were seen as troublemakers or potential threats, but Jews were killed solely for being Jews.

The intent of the Third Reich was to exterminate European Jewry. Not conquer...not subjugate...not oppress...but wipe out. Yes, there have been other genocides, but those were largely limited to specific areas or countries. And that leads to the third difference between the Holocaust and similar events...

The scope of the Holocaust was breathtaking. Think about it: Mass murder across an entire continent -- 6,000,000 people -- carried out with the same efficiency one would associate with an industrial effort. Henry Ford mass-produced automobiles; Adolf Hitler mass-produced corpses. An entire infrastructure was developed and managed for the sole purpose of killing human beings. And these were not combatants, but the civilian population of conquered nations, many of them weak and helpless.

The brutality of the Third Reich is hard to overstate. Thousands of French civilians were executed in reprisals for insurgent attacks against Germans; POWs in the East were starved to the point where acts of cannibalism occurred; slave laborers were worked literally to death, without cessation or mercy.

I am no history expert, and I know there are those with better-informed viewpoints than mine, but I am very passionate about this subject. In only a few years, my great-grandparents' nation went from being one of the most cultured, educated, and religious countries in Europe, to being one where mothers holding their infants were shot through the head by men who were just following orders. If it happened there, it could happen anywhere, given the right circumstances...which is why we must never forget.

Good answer Beemerguy53 but I dont agree on some facts. First, the holocaust its not so unique. It has happened many times on history involving other characters. For example;

The most recent one; on Ruanda the Hutus murdered the Tutsi minority, only for the fact they where born Tutsis, not because they where a menace, the easyness of the massacre shows how helpless they where (only on the last moments of their "holocaust" they where able to resist and fight back).

Also, the Jew holocaust isnt the biggest tragedy a nation have suffered. An example of that; Paraguay as consecuence of their defeat on the War of the Triple Alliance (Paraguay vs Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay 1864-1870) - according to the Britanica Enciclopedia - had its population reduced to 17%, with 90% percent of his male population killed.

I have been several times on Paraguay, and you dont see them crying over it, decade after decade. They just moved on and their tragedy was by far more cathastropic than the one the Jews faced (even if they lost 6 million, their gobal population dident went down less than the 17% the Paraguayans had to suffer).

I am aware that on certain countries the Jews where exterminated, but globaly they didnt got such a hard punch as Paraguay, and I say that, considering that the holocaust is always represented as a Jew race issue, and not a polish, hungarian, german, or french Jew issue. If they want to show the world their tragedy as the worst a nation has suffered, sorry but thats not true, others have had even worst scenarios.

My appologies in advance, for the gramatical mistakes. And what I have said was with no intention to harm anyone feelings, or to start an argument with anyone. Its a personal view, on a certain historic event and nothing else. My respects to everyone.

 

[arjay]

As has been brought up before,this was a western nation of supposedly civilized and educated people,but it was still fairly easy to convince them that that tribe right there is the source of our problems,so we need to kill them.It still goes on,even here.

 

[blues7]

Good answer Beemerguy53 but I dont agree on some facts. First, the holocaust its not so unique. It has happened many times on history involving other characters. For example;

The most recent one; on Ruanda the Hutus murdered the Tutsi minority, only for the fact they where born Tutsis, not because they where a menace, the easyness of the massacre shows how helpless they where (only on the last moments of their "holocaust" they where able to resist and fight back).

Also, the jew holocaust isnt the biggest tragedy a nation have suffered. An example of that; Paraguay as consecuence of their defeat on the War of the Triple Alliance (Paraguay vs Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay 1864-1870) - according to the Britanica Enciclopedia - had its population reduced to 17%, with 90% percent of his male population killed.

I have been several times on Paraguay, and you dont see them crying over it, decade after decade. They just moved on and their tragedy was by far more cathastropic than the one the jews faced (even if they lost 6 million, their gobal population dident went down less than the 17% the Paraguayans had to suffer).

I am aware that on certain countries the jews where exterminated, but globaly they didnt got such a hard punch as Paraguay, and I say that, considering that the holocaust is always represented as a jew race issue, and not a polish, hungarian, german, or french jew issue. If they want to show the world their tragedy as the worst a nation has suffered, sorry but thats not true, others have had even worst scenarios.

My appologies in advance, for the gramatical mistakes. And what I have said was with no intention to harm anyone feelings, or to start an argument with anyone. Its a personal view, on a certain historic event and nothing else. My respects to everyone.

No offense intended, especially if you intended no offense as stated in the last paragraph of your post, but perhaps you might try to remember in future posts that the word Jew begins with a capital J.

It is perceived as demeaning to do otherwise.

Thank you for your consideration.

 

[Old TexMex]

I percieve elitism in the argument that the Holocaust visited upon the Jewish population of Europe is more important than the genocide of other races. Different perhaps, but the lives of the peasant in Russia or the native in South America are equally valuable.

The horror should be recognized as action taken by whom rather than upon whom . Social engineering is planned and performed by those who consider themselves "better than", "more intelligent than" or any number of other superlatives - including "for the good of the planet" to justify the "cleansing" they would perform. And whether starvation, disease or outright murder by gun or blade the end result is the same to those selected for extermination.

We must judge the crime and the criminal, rather than the victim, lest we rationalize and justify the murder of other populations or "types" based on the attitude of superiority (for whatever reason) of a few in power.

The failure to recognize this, I believe, is proven by the repetition of genocide into the age of mass awareness in which we live.
We, as human beings, continue to turn away our judgement and issue a pass to those leaders who perform or enable acts of genocide, often in our name nationally, racially, scientifically or even for economic gain.

 

[Arik]

Good answer Beemerguy53 but I dont agree on some facts. First, the holocaust its not so unique. It has happened many times on history involving other characters. For example;

The most recent one; on Ruanda the Hutus murdered the Tutsi minority, only for the fact they where born Tutsis, not because they where a menace, the easyness of the massacre shows how helpless they where (only on the last moments of their "holocaust" they where able to resist and fight back).

Also, the jew holocaust isnt the biggest tragedy a nation have suffered. An example of that; Paraguay as consecuence of their defeat on the War of the Triple Alliance (Paraguay vs Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay 1864-1870) - according to the Britanica Enciclopedia - had its population reduced to 17%, with 90% percent of his male population killed.

I have been several times on Paraguay, and you dont see them crying over it, decade after decade. They just moved on and their tragedy was by far more cathastropic than the one the jews faced (even if they lost 6 million, their gobal population dident went down less than the 17% the Paraguayans had to suffer).

I am aware that on certain countries the jews where exterminated, but globaly they didnt got such a hard punch as Paraguay, and I say that, considering that the holocaust is always represented as a jew race issue, and not a polish, hungarian, german, or french jew issue. If they want to show the world their tragedy as the worst a nation has suffered, sorry but thats not true, others have had even worst scenarios.

My appologies in advance, for the gramatical mistakes. And what I have said was with no intention to harm anyone feelings, or to start an argument with anyone. Its a personal view, on a certain historic event and nothing else. My respects to everyone.

Paraguay's pre-war population of 525,000 was reduced to 221,000 of which only 28,000 were men. The war itself was the after effect of colonialism.

The reason they don't cry over it is because that was long ago.....a 150 years ago. ALL those people are long dead. Life moves on. Holocaust is still fairly recent. A lot of the people involved in the Holocaust and WW2 are still alive, their memories are still alive. It's only been 3 - 4 generations. My grandfather was involved in that meanwhile I don't even know any relatives from 1900, let alone 1870. Many bad things could have happened in Europe in 1870. They could have happened to my family but I don't cry about it because I don't even know it or them. We will not be around for it but the same thing will happen with the Holocaust and WW2. In another 100 years it will just be something that happened in history long ago

That's 304,000 Paraguayan dead. Of course this is a horrible thing. But...

Jews 5.93 million
Soviet POW 2 - 3 million
Ethnic Poles 2 million
Serbs 300,000–500,000
Disabled 270,000
Gypsies 90,000 - 220,000
Freemasons 80,000 - 220,000
Slovenes 20,000 - 25,000
Gay 5,000 - 15,000
Jehovah's witness 2,500 - 5,000
Spanish Republicans 7,000

So almost 6 million Jews. If you're looking by country
-Poland lost 90% of their Jewish population (3 million)
-Germany & Austria 90% (210,000)
- Baltic States 90% (228,000)

There are many more countries and I'm not going to list them all but the total European Jewish population was reduced by 67%

"that the holocaust is always represented as a jew race issue, and not a polish, hungarian, german, or french jew issue"

Correct. It's just a considered a Jewish issue because it's both religion and nationality. If you're Jewish you don't consider yourself a French Jew or a German, Polish, Paraguayan Jew. You consider yourself a Jew who lives in France, Germany, Poland, Paraguay. It's not just a religion. One group living in different countries.

Rwanda was a separate issue. Hutus didn't go looking for Tutsi in other countries and the reason itself dates back to the colonial era when the Germans and Belgians considers the Tutsi more white and thus superior to the Hutus. They put Tutsi in charge while the Hutu were oppressed by the Europeans and their Tutsi backed government. By 1960 Belgium had reversed it's opinion and started to remove the Tutsi from power and replacing them with Hutu. All this European meddling caused animosity between the two groups.
By the way this is another case of where the Europeans decded who's more superior.

Same can be said with the with Yugoslavia. The Muslim vs Eastern Orthodox vs Catholic. It was a war in its country....a civil war. Neither of the groups went out looking for their enemies outside of Yugoslavia.


To get back on kinda on topic and to stay with the Paraguay tragedy of 1870.... I present to you Eastern Europen Pogrom. Word means violence to massacre a ethnic or religious group.

The persecution dates back to the Black Death in Europe where people thought the plague was started by Jews. In 1349 900 Jews were burned alive in Flanders on February 14th. In 1370 the Brussels massacre completely wiped out the Jewish community in Belgium.

Modern pogrom started in the 1600s in Ukraine where Cossacks killed between 50,000 - 100,000 Jewish men women and children. In 1880s there were 200 pogroms against the Jews, who were blamed for the assassination of Alexander II. During the Russian civil war there were 1200 pogroms. The Kiev pogrom of 1919 saw 30,000 - 70,000 Jews killed across Ukraine. Between 1880s and 1920s there were 1300 pogroms in Ukraine which killed 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews. Only 20 years later WW2 happened

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[cmort666]

Good answer Beemerguy53 but I dont agree on some facts. First, the holocaust its not so unique. It has happened many times on history involving other characters. For example;

Actually the Holocaust is quite unique.

There have been massacres and pogroms throughout the whole of human history. The Holocaust was of an entirely different character in a number of ways.

1. For its principle target, there was no "surrender". The Tsarist meme regarding the Jews was, "One third will convert, one third will emigrate, and one third will starve." The Nazi meme was that three thirds would die by whatever means were necessary. Jews weren't driven out of the Reich and conquered territory after the Wannsee Conference. They were PREVENTED from leaving so that they could be concentrated, catalogued and ELIMINATED down to the last person.
2. After the Wannsee Conference, the elimination of the Jews was reorganized as an INDUSTRIAL undertaking, on the order of the Manhattan Project.
   
   The United States massacred Indians at various times. We DIDN'T build camps SOLELY for their extermination through technological means.
   
   For Hitler, the COMPLETE ELIMINATION of the Jews was a higher priority than defeating the Allies.

The Holocaust as it was actually put into effect was unique, just as Stalin's purges were in their way unique at the time of their implementation.

 

[blues7]

...but the lives of the peasant in Russia or the native in South America are equally valuable.

The horror should be recognized as action taken by whom rather than upon whom . Social engineering is planned and performed by those who consider themselves "better than", "more intelligent than" or any number of other superlatives - including "for the good of the planet" to justify the "cleansing" they would perform. And whether starvation, disease or outright murder by gun or blade the end result is the same to those selected for extermination.

We must judge the crime and the criminal, rather than the victim, lest we rationalize and justify the murder of other populations or "types" based on the attitude of superiority (for whatever reason) of a few in power...

I agree with you, TexMex that it matters not the race, religion or nationality of any group who are subjected to wholesale slaughter and genocide merely for being who and what they are.
Whether peasant in Asia, tribal member in Africa or native American. Murder is murder and genocide is genocide regardless of who the perpetrator or the victim may be.

This reminds me of a conversation I had as a somewhat wayward youth in a "coffeehouse" run by the Jesuits in Greenwich Village back in the 60's.

I was sitting having a philosophical discussion with one of the priests late one night and asked him if, according to his faith and world view, an African tribal member who had never been exposed to Christianity could go to heaven. He told me they could not as they could only attain heaven through Christ and there was no allowance made if they had never heard of him or received instruction.

I asked him whether a person who was a philanthropist of another religion, or an atheist or just someone who didn't accept Jesus as his (or her) savior despite doing good deeds for mankind at great sacrifice to themselves could go to heaven...and he told me no they couldn't.

I told him that I didn't understand how a just and merciful God could turn his back on people who did good deeds and brought good to the world...but he was unrelenting in his mindset and conviction that they couldn't.

I told him that that was why I could not be a member of any church or synagogue or religious group because all I could see were walls and divisiveness.

I bring this up not to promote or detract from any religion, doctrine or point of view but merely as an illustration.

All lives matter...and the world is diminished every time an innocent of any race, creed, religion or ethnicity is murdered.

 

[cmort666]

I have been several times on Paraguay, and you dont see them crying over it, decade after decade. They just moved on and their tragedy was by far more cathastropic than the one the jews faced (even if they lost 6 million, their gobal population dident went down less than the 17% the Paraguayans had to suffer).

Did the other countries demand that Paraguanos from EVERYWHERE be killed?

Did the other countries create a unique industrial organization and process to kill EVERY Paraguano IN THE WORLD?

Vastly more Chinese died in the Tai Ping Rebellion than in the War of the Triple Alliance and the Holocaust COMBINED. It was never the goal of ANY of the parties involved that there should be NO CHINESE LEFT IN THE WORLD.

I am aware that on certain countries the jews where exterminated, but globaly they didnt got such a hard punch as Paraguay, and I say that, considering that the holocaust is always represented as a jew race issue, and not a polish, hungarian, german, or french jew issue.

As was pointed out to you, they sure got one hell of a golpetazo in Europe and North Africa. The ONLY reason more weren't murdered is that Hitler couldn't get TO them. He had plans for Britain's Jews after Seeloewe.

Stalin had a fixation on not identifying Jewish victims of the Holocaust as Jews, but as "Soviet citizens", Ukrainians, Belorussians, etc. But then he was quite the anti-Semite himself.

 

[JavierLaurido]

No offense intended, especially if you intended no offense as stated in the last paragraph of your post, but perhaps you might try to remember in future posts that the word Jew begins with a capital J.

It is perceived as demeaning to do otherwise.

Thank you for your consideration.

Corrected, thank you Blues7.

 

[blues7]

Corrected, thank you Blues7.

Thank you, Javier. I appreciate your taking my words as they were intended.

 

[JavierLaurido]

I percieve elitism in the argument that the Holocaust visited upon the Jewish population of Europe is more important than the genocide of other races.

Thats exactly the feeling a lot of people gets (I am part of that group). From all the people, minorities, tribes, etc hunted and massacred during WWII, the Jews continuosly show to the world, they were THE ones that suffer. I have never been on Israel (so I can be mistaken), but I have the feeling that on their holocaust museums, theres no reference at all, to Gypsis, or others who suffered too.

And on a personal perception, I have meet various modern Jews ON MY country, and what I specialy perceive from them, is just that; Elitism. Saddly, but that doesent works good on their image.

 

[cmort666]

Thats exactly the feeling a lot of people gets (I am part of that group). From all the people, minorities, tribes, etc hunted and massacred during WWII, the Jews continuosly show to the world, they were THE ones that suffer.

Well, given that they were the principal targets, it would seem odd that they WOULDN'T consider their place in the Holocaust "special".

For Hitler, the Jews were the be all and end all of "racial enemies". Everyone else was practically an after-thought.

Plan-Ost was intended to depopulate large swathes of Eastern Europe to make way for German settlers. Those settlers were still going to have Slavic serfs. There would be NO Jewish serfs.

 

[Beemerguy53]

I percieve elitism in the argument that the Holocaust visited upon the Jewish population of Europe is more important than the genocide of other races. Different perhaps, but the lives of the peasant in Russia or the native in South America are equally valuable...

I don't think anyone here has made the argument that the lives of members of any particular ethnic or religious group are worth more than the lives of anyone else.

What is different about the Holocaust is, as cmort666 and I have explained, is that Jews -- all Jews, everywhere -- were specifically targeted for extermination, and a government program was created to accomplish that. Now then, I've confessed to not being a historian, and I have learned a lot I didn't know from reading the posts on this thread...but I am unable to think of any similar event -- at least in recent history -- where a nation invaded other nations, conquered them, and then rounded up innocent, non-combatant members of a specific ethnic group, and transported them to a facility designed for the sole purpose of killing them.