The application of serial numbers does not restrict the people to keep or bear arms. If my firearms are ever stolen, I sure want to provide law enforcement with identifying serial numbers, so if they are ever recovered, I have a chance of having them returned and they serve as evidence of possessing stolen property.
Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge
- Thread starter Muley Gil
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If (in California) you have a home made firearm without a serial number you are now a felon in possession of an illegal firearm. Forcing you to serialize is unconstitutional (her Braun decision) therefore you are NOT in possession of an illegal firearm - who wants to be the test case? Give an inch, the will take 10,000 miles.
More recently, importers were required to add a serial number to imported arms that may otherwise not have unique serial numbers.
Unfortunately that reflected a narrow view of what constituted a unique serial number in the bigger marking picture. For example, a Walther P.38 will have a three letter manufacture code, a year, and a 4 digit serial with an alphanumeric letter in front of the 4 digit serial number.
So there will be a *lot* of P.38s with serial number “1234”, several with “a1234”, and a few with “a1234” and a 1943 date, but only one with “CYQ 1943 a1234”.
The ATF should have been requiring FFLs to capture the whole code as the serial, not just the “a1234” but that’s another fault with ATF not understanding how to properly implement a requirement and knowing when details do and do not matter.
Determining that it is legal to *remove* a serial number isn’t in any of our interests.
If it’s upheld it means there is now no disincentive for a thief or buyer of a stolen weapon to remove the serial number and render it non identifiable. It will make it nearly impossible for stolen weapons to be identified as stolen and returned to their owners.
If it’s upheld it means there is now no disincentive for a thief or buyer of a stolen weapon to remove the serial number and render it non identifiable. It will make it nearly impossible for stolen weapons to be identified as stolen and returned to their owners.
While I can see some merit in this, Merit does not equal either legal OR Constitutional. Once I own a gun it is MY PROPERTY, as long as I am not doing ACTUAL, harm to some one else I should be able to do as I please with my personal property. Lets say I have a K frame I want to round butt, why should I not be able to do so even if it removes the first digit or so? Especially if I can easily re-stamp the number in another location? At one time this was legal, but no longer. If I told some one I had gun K1234567 stolen and that number is now on the side of the grip frame instead of the butt just how is it harder to ID? If anything it is easier to ID in view of grips that hide the butt number.
If anyone here thinks this law is somehow keeping criminals from removing serial numbers, I have news for you. The serial number laws are working just as well as the laws saying they shall not commit crimes in the first place.
Guns are stolen regularly despite their serial numbers. The vast majority of stolen guns are from then on sold and traded among criminals BECAUSE of serial numbers. If they lacked serial numbers they would be more apt to end up sold back into the hands of the law abiding. Thieves do not pawn guns because of serial numbers, true, but they certainly do sell them all the time.
Cars have lots of ID numbers, plates etc etc.They are also very easy to see. Yet, in 2020 alone, there were 873,080 vehicle thefts — that's around 2,385 vehicles stolen per day. This is a 9.2% increase compared to 2019, which had 799,644 thefts.
The serial numbers are working there?
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IronSkillet
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Last time I checked it was still: Five-year prison sentence for altering the serial number of a firearm and five-year prison sentence for possessing a firearm with altered serial number.
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When were SNs REQUIRED by Federal law?
When were SNs REQUIRED by Federal law?
It is my understand that serial numbers of firearms were not Required until GCA of 1968.
I understand that any firearm produced before that and had a factory installed/assigned serial number could not have that serial number removed or modified.
I also understand that It was possible to apply to the ATF to relocate the Serial number to a different location on the frame. I.e In the case of a 38/44 I ONCE OWNED a lanyard ring was installed and this required the relocation of the factory serial number to another part of the frame. As I understand this was allowable by Federal Statute Serial number as assigned by factory was NOT changed but was relocated to a different portion of the frame.
Sorry for all the weasel words BUT.
Sincerely, Fred
When were SNs REQUIRED by Federal law?
It is my understand that serial numbers of firearms were not Required until GCA of 1968.
I understand that any firearm produced before that and had a factory installed/assigned serial number could not have that serial number removed or modified.
I also understand that It was possible to apply to the ATF to relocate the Serial number to a different location on the frame. I.e In the case of a 38/44 I ONCE OWNED a lanyard ring was installed and this required the relocation of the factory serial number to another part of the frame. As I understand this was allowable by Federal Statute Serial number as assigned by factory was NOT changed but was relocated to a different portion of the frame.
Sorry for all the weasel words BUT.
Sincerely, Fred
OP
One upside is that those folks who buy a firearm that has its SN removed would be in the clear.
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Wow, the old saying, “ you can not Legislate MORALITY” is so true. Enforcement of long time standing “ laws” would be fine. Read the 10 Commandments, all we really need.
Any one have any statistics on how often stolen firearms are returned to owners?
so , if you remove the serial number, who would buy a gun that can't be checked for being stolen? Would any gun store want it in their building, much less for sale? {consignment or otherwise} You may have the right to remove the SN, but would anyone even want to inherit it?
I don’t know if this ruling will be productive in the long run. It’s a stretch to apply the NY ruling to it. I think serial numbers are probably one of the regulations that does serve a legitimate “police power” purpose, along with interstate commerce, even under strict scrutiny.
On the other hand, if it opens the door to anti-NFA opinions, I’m okay with that.
On the other hand, if it opens the door to anti-NFA opinions, I’m okay with that.
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jag312
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To the Federal Government; You want a serial number? Here's a serial number.
I have an 80% receiver, and if I have to put on a serial number, this is how the number and other identifying marks will be engraved. I had to black out the "company logo". It depicts a simple line drawing of the middle finger salute that offends some people here. The receiver is presently unmarked and unfinished, and I have no intention of finishing it. I will one day have the engraving done, but it will always be a paper weight. For a serial number, take some dice and throw them. The numbers that come up are the serial number.
I have an 80% receiver, and if I have to put on a serial number, this is how the number and other identifying marks will be engraved. I had to black out the "company logo". It depicts a simple line drawing of the middle finger salute that offends some people here. The receiver is presently unmarked and unfinished, and I have no intention of finishing it. I will one day have the engraving done, but it will always be a paper weight. For a serial number, take some dice and throw them. The numbers that come up are the serial number.
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Good decision. Follow the COTUS. If the fed./st. govts. find it inconvenient, fine. It should not be easy for govt. to restrict/control the civil rights guaranteed to all citizens by the COTUS. It should be incredibly hard to the point of impossible. Sincerely. bruce.
I'm sorry, but by definition, a criminal doesn't care about the law, because they are criminals. Meaning that they intentionally break the law, regardless of what law you pass. The way the "justice system" allows criminals to walk, where is their incentive to not break the law? Do you think a criminal with a gun is going to think twice about removing the serial number because he might get in trouble? Really? "Oh, if I remove this serial number from my STOLEN GUN that I am not legally able to own and possess because of my criminal background, and I kill someone with that illegally possessed, STOLEN GUN, while I am robbing, raping or carjacking them, I will get in serious trouble." Yeah, sounds logical, doesn't it?
How many people here have actually checked the VIN on their vehicles against their titles. Do you even look when you buy a car off a used lot or a private sale? Most likely not. I never have and here nobody ever looks, I don't believe I have ever seen a LEO check one to see if it matched my registration either. Cars and trucks cost way more than guns. Plus, as I pointed out earlier lots of them get stolen every day.
Joke is if I wanted to I could change the serial number on a gun or a car. Pop out the windshield, remove and replace VIN, install windshield, tig weld over serial number file, sand, polish, stamp and stick the butt in my blue tank till it matched. On a stainless gun even easier. Older models with multiple serial numbers not as easy, but then I have had 2 FFL write down an assembly number from the yoke cut on older guns. Most of the newer guns yoke numbers are so light you could probably press them out pretty easy. It is just metal folks and 99.9% are not looking very hard, if at all.
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Private Bailey
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In the case of Randy Price, the judge’s ruling seems moot. So the charge of possessing a non-numbered gun was dismissed. So what? Price is a multi-convicted felon caught with a gun. He’s probably still going to jail. I don’t see this ruling as having a national impact, or even being a Second Amendment issue, or any sort of “victory” over the anti-gun forces. Just my opinion.
Randy Price is a convicted felon. Far as I’m concerned, he has no Second Amendment rights.
Randy Price is a convicted felon. Far as I’m concerned, he has no Second Amendment rights.
Ser#'s were required before the GCA68
Ser#'s were required on all handguns regardless of caliber,,and on all CF Rifles.
RF Long-guns and Shotguns were Not required to be ser#'s at mfg.
With the GCA68 going into effect:
Ser#'s were now required on all 22rf Long guns and on all SHotguns
(as well as continuance of ser#'s all handguns and all CF Rifles.)
The GCA68 brought those last 2 groups of firearms (rf Long guns and all shotguns) into the 'must be ser#d' catagory.
So in effect with the passing of GCA68,,,All catagorys of Firearms MFG in the USA were now required to be Ser#'s.
(But 2 catagorys were already required before it's passing).
The Fed Law that made it a Felony to alter, remove or obliterate a manufacturers applied ser# on a firearm was passed into law with the Federal Firearms Act of 1938.
The same language was written into the GCA68 law.
When the GCA68 took effect, the FFA38 was no longer law.
With permission of the IRS (pre GCA68 Fed Firearms Enforcement Div) or the BATF (post GCA68 Fed Firearms Enforcement Div), a firearms factory applied ser# can be relocated on a firearm.
It used to be easier to get that permission than it is now.
A simple form request to the Technology Div of the BATF and an explanation of why you want or need to do this.
At one time, the reason being simple artistic or custom redesign was often good enough for permission granted.
Engravers would sometimes seek to move a ser# that was in position that spoiled a pattern layout. Hamilton Bowen routinely would seek and be granted requests to move the ser# on the bottom of the butt of S&W over for install of a swivel.
Moving the Ruger SA ser# from the right side of the frame to another loc so the frame could be made a light weight was another.
Then the BATF changed course and these artistic and cosmetic change requests were no longer a done deal.
It's still available, but the valid reasons for doing it and granting permission seem to be fewer.
On some stolen/recovered firearms with a completely obliterated factory #, but a firearm that has been ID'd through forensics and traced back to their rightful owner,,the ATF will assign a new # and stamp that in it's place.
That will have an 'ATF' prefix.
The sorrist one I saw was a very nice 1st gen Colt SAA with a ATF ser# stamped boldly into the left side of the frame.
A gun with family history, stolen, all the #'s ground and filed off. Then the new # handstamped with 3/16 tall characters in the side of the frame.
'Well,,,you got your gun back!' said the property clerk..
For you Legal types a question..
Just about every State has in their own laws a nearly identicle worded law/reg as the Federal Law regarding this Removing/altering/obliterating the manufacturers applied firearms serial number.
In addition many States have added in that it is unlawful to remove other manufacturers applied markings such as caliber, mfg name, address, in some instances inspector marks , etc.
?,,Would all of these State laws be striken down as well in their entirety if the Fed Law went down?
Or could the State Laws stand in full or some partial form.
Just about every State has in their own laws a nearly identicle worded law/reg as the Federal Law regarding this Removing/altering/obliterating the manufacturers applied firearms serial number.
In addition many States have added in that it is unlawful to remove other manufacturers applied markings such as caliber, mfg name, address, in some instances inspector marks , etc.
?,,Would all of these State laws be striken down as well in their entirety if the Fed Law went down?
Or could the State Laws stand in full or some partial form.
