Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

[tmd17]

.... It will make it nearly impossible for stolen weapons to be identified as stolen and returned to their owners.

Any one have any statistics on how often stolen firearms are returned to owners?

 

[RoyM52]

so , if you remove the serial number, who would buy a gun that can't be checked for being stolen? Would any gun store want it in their building, much less for sale? {consignment or otherwise} You may have the right to remove the SN, but would anyone even want to inherit it?

 

[cda322]

I don't know if this ruling will be productive in the long run. It's a stretch to apply the NY ruling to it. I think serial numbers are probably one of the regulations that does serve a legitimate "police power" purpose, along with interstate commerce, even under strict scrutiny.

On the other hand, if it opens the door to anti-NFA opinions, I'm okay with that.

 

[jag312]

To the Federal Government; You want a serial number? Here's a serial number.



I have an 80% receiver, and if I have to put on a serial number, this is how the number and other identifying marks will be engraved. I had to black out the "company logo". It depicts a simple line drawing of the middle finger salute that offends some people here. The receiver is presently unmarked and unfinished, and I have no intention of finishing it. I will one day have the engraving done, but it will always be a paper weight. For a serial number, take some dice and throw them. The numbers that come up are the serial number.

 

[brucev]

Good decision. Follow the COTUS. If the fed./st. govts. find it inconvenient, fine. It should not be easy for govt. to restrict/control the civil rights guaranteed to all citizens by the COTUS. It should be incredibly hard to the point of impossible. Sincerely. bruce.

 

[snowman1967]

Determining that it is legal to *remove* a serial number isn't in any of our interests.

If it's upheld it means there is now no disincentive for a thief or buyer of a stolen weapon to remove the serial number and render it non identifiable. It will make it nearly impossible for stolen weapons to be identified as stolen and returned to their owners.

I'm sorry, but by definition, a criminal doesn't care about the law, because they are criminals. Meaning that they intentionally break the law, regardless of what law you pass. The way the "justice system" allows criminals to walk, where is their incentive to not break the law? Do you think a criminal with a gun is going to think twice about removing the serial number because he might get in trouble? Really? "Oh, if I remove this serial number from my STOLEN GUN that I am not legally able to own and possess because of my criminal background, and I kill someone with that illegally possessed, STOLEN GUN, while I am robbing, raping or carjacking them, I will get in serious trouble." Yeah, sounds logical, doesn't it?

 

[steelslaver]

so , if you remove the serial number, who would buy a gun that can't be checked for being stolen? Would any gun store want it in their building, much less for sale? {consignment or otherwise} You may have the right to remove the SN, but would anyone even want to inherit it?

How many people here have actually checked the VIN on their vehicles against their titles. Do you even look when you buy a car off a used lot or a private sale? Most likely not. I never have and here nobody ever looks, I don't believe I have ever seen a LEO check one to see if it matched my registration either. Cars and trucks cost way more than guns. Plus, as I pointed out earlier lots of them get stolen every day.

Joke is if I wanted to I could change the serial number on a gun or a car. Pop out the windshield, remove and replace VIN, install windshield, tig weld over serial number file, sand, polish, stamp and stick the butt in my blue tank till it matched. On a stainless gun even easier. Older models with multiple serial numbers not as easy, but then I have had 2 FFL write down an assembly number from the yoke cut on older guns. Most of the newer guns yoke numbers are so light you could probably press them out pretty easy. It is just metal folks and 99.9% are not looking very hard, if at all.

 

[Private Bailey]

In the case of Randy Price, the judge's ruling seems moot. So the charge of possessing a non-numbered gun was dismissed. So what? Price is a multi-convicted felon caught with a gun. He's probably still going to jail. I don't see this ruling as having a national impact, or even being a Second Amendment issue, or any sort of "victory" over the anti-gun forces. Just my opinion.

Randy Price is a convicted felon. Far as I'm concerned, he has no Second Amendment rights.

 

[2152hq]

When were SNs REQUIRED by Federal law?

It is my understand that serial numbers of firearms were not Required until GCA of 1968.
I understand that any firearm produced before that and had a factory installed/assigned serial number could not have that serial number removed or modified.
I also understand that It was possible to apply to the ATF to relocate the Serial number to a different location on the frame. I.e In the case of a 38/44 I ONCE OWNED a lanyard ring was installed and this required the relocation of the factory serial number to another part of the frame. As I understand this was allowable by Federal Statute Serial number as assigned by factory was NOT changed but was relocated to a different portion of the frame.

Sorry for all the weasel words BUT.


Sincerely, Fred

Ser#'s were required before the GCA68
Ser#'s were required on all handguns regardless of caliber,,and on all CF Rifles.
RF Long-guns and Shotguns were Not required to be ser#'s at mfg.

With the GCA68 going into effect:
Ser#'s were now required on all 22rf Long guns and on all SHotguns
(as well as continuance of ser#'s all handguns and all CF Rifles.)

The GCA68 brought those last 2 groups of firearms (rf Long guns and all shotguns) into the 'must be ser#d' catagory.
So in effect with the passing of GCA68,,,All catagorys of Firearms MFG in the USA were now required to be Ser#'s.
(But 2 catagorys were already required before it's passing).

The Fed Law that made it a Felony to alter, remove or obliterate a manufacturers applied ser# on a firearm was passed into law with the Federal Firearms Act of 1938.
The same language was written into the GCA68 law.
When the GCA68 took effect, the FFA38 was no longer law.

With permission of the IRS (pre GCA68 Fed Firearms Enforcement Div) or the BATF (post GCA68 Fed Firearms Enforcement Div), a firearms factory applied ser# can be relocated on a firearm.
It used to be easier to get that permission than it is now.
A simple form request to the Technology Div of the BATF and an explanation of why you want or need to do this.
At one time, the reason being simple artistic or custom redesign was often good enough for permission granted.
Engravers would sometimes seek to move a ser# that was in position that spoiled a pattern layout. Hamilton Bowen routinely would seek and be granted requests to move the ser# on the bottom of the butt of S&W over for install of a swivel.
Moving the Ruger SA ser# from the right side of the frame to another loc so the frame could be made a light weight was another.

Then the BATF changed course and these artistic and cosmetic change requests were no longer a done deal.
It's still available, but the valid reasons for doing it and granting permission seem to be fewer.

On some stolen/recovered firearms with a completely obliterated factory #, but a firearm that has been ID'd through forensics and traced back to their rightful owner,,the ATF will assign a new # and stamp that in it's place.
That will have an 'ATF' prefix.

The sorrist one I saw was a very nice 1st gen Colt SAA with a ATF ser# stamped boldly into the left side of the frame.
A gun with family history, stolen, all the #'s ground and filed off. Then the new # handstamped with 3/16 tall characters in the side of the frame.
'Well,,,you got your gun back!' said the property clerk..

 

[2152hq]

For you Legal types a question..
Just about every State has in their own laws a nearly identicle worded law/reg as the Federal Law regarding this Removing/altering/obliterating the manufacturers applied firearms serial number.
In addition many States have added in that it is unlawful to remove other manufacturers applied markings such as caliber, mfg name, address, in some instances inspector marks , etc.

?,,Would all of these State laws be striken down as well in their entirety if the Fed Law went down?
Or could the State Laws stand in full or some partial form.

 

[Wombat1954]

Your legal system appears to be at the whims of elected officials. Removing serial numbers does not sit with me. if you have nothing to hide, then no problem so why remove serial numbers?
It would never happen here in Oz,

 

[steelslaver]

For you Legal types a question..
Just about every State has in their own laws a nearly identicle worded law/reg as the Federal Law regarding this Removing/altering/obliterating the manufacturers applied firearms serial number.
In addition many States have added in that it is unlawful to remove other manufacturers applied markings such as caliber, mfg name, address, in some instances inspector marks , etc.

?,,Would all of these State laws be striken down as well in their entirety if the Fed Law went down?
Or could the State Laws stand in full or some partial form.

If the law is held unconstitutional it would be unconstitutional at any level of government. A state, county or city can not enforce an unconstitutional law.

Nothing in the codes here related to serial numbers or their removal. Zip zero nada. In fact I could deny an officers request to even look at my gun unless he had good reason to believe I had or was committing a crime with it. A game warden can't even ask if it is loaded because it is legal to be loaded any time it is in my possession. The only time any of my serial numbers have come into play is when I recieving one from an FFL.

 

[johngalt]

Your legal system appears to be at the whims of elected officials. Removing serial numbers does not sit with me. if you have nothing to hide, then no problem so why remove serial numbers?
It would never happen here in Oz,

Here in the free world, our rights are not subject to "if you have nothing to hide".

 

[SMSgt]

For you Legal types a question..
?,,Would all of these State laws be striken down as well in their entirety if the Fed Law went down?
Or could the State Laws stand in full or some partial form.

It might depend on the ruling. Like the SCOTUS recent abortion decision, the court may rule it is not federal business and leave the decision making to the individual states.

 

[John_M52]

If it is a constitutional rights issue it is by definition federal business.

 

[steelslaver]

Big difference between the 2 cases in this one the judge held that the law was not constitutional. In the other volatile case what they actually held was there was no actual constitutional protection for the procedure. They did not say it was either constitutional or unconstitutional, but that it was not protected as a right by the constitution and it was up to each state to decide what they wanted.

 

[delcrossv]

Nice that the courts are finally recognizing that the NFA and GCA are unconstitutional infringements.

I suspect the whole regulatory scheme will come apart pretty soon. Looking forward to getting a new AA-12.

 

[Yaworski]

much like the VIN on a motor vehicle.

However, a motor vehicle doesn't need a VIN unless you're trying to register it.

 

[Yaworski]

It would never happen here in Oz,

I'd comment but I'd probably get banned again.

 

[Wombat1954]

Here in the free world, our rights are not subject to "if you have nothing to hide".

So here in Oz we are not part of the free world? All that time and effort supporting the US in many world conflicts was a waste of time? I don't think so, but my question was not answered.
Why remove the serial numbers?

 

[johngalt]

So here in Oz we are not part of the free world? All that time and effort supporting the US in many world conflicts was a waste of time? I don't think so, but my question was not answered.
Why remove the serial numbers?

When it comes to firearm ownership, you're not.

You asked the wrong question. The correct question is "Why does the government have any business knowing what I own and have the authority to require a tracking number?"

 

[HeyJoe]

don't take that personally. many refer to at least 24 states in the United States as not being in the free world.

 

[HeyJoe]

When it comes to firearm ownership, you're not.

You asked the wrong question. The correct question is "Why does the government have any business knowing what I own and have the authority to require a tracking number?"

when your state has constitutional carry then you can talk about living in the free world.

 

[Roger Kipwell]

When it comes to firearm ownership, you're not.

I believe that free speech is also restricted.

 

[serger]

Light 'em up. Wombat1954. Us yanks are as a rule are arrogant
plunkers.

 

[steelslaver]

Here is an interesting thought. What if right now a person in the jurisdiction of this judge removed a serial number from a gun. He would be doing something the federal legal system in his jurisdiction said was legal. Then even if it was overturned at a later date, it would be difficult to prosecute because it was done while it was legal

As to why remove a serial number, the only real legit reason I can think of is the owner wants to do a modification to the area where the serial number is.

 

[steelslaver]

when your state has constitutional carry then you can talk about living in the free world.

You can talk about it all you want, but unless your state lets you carry the loaded gun of your choice, with what ever sized magazine you chose, on your person or in your private vehicle, buy and sell your guns among yourselves without having to go through the government, you are not really living in a free state,

 

[GaryS]

Why would they go to the expense of doing that? Plus, the frame is the only part that requires a serial number as federal law defines the receiver as the gun.

Good question. In the long run, it accomplishes nothing.

I expect manufacturers to begin putting a gun's serial number on various internal parts, and that the number will only be legible when viewed with a certain type of light or read by a dedicated scanner of some sort. Not only will people not be able to see the number, they'll be clueless as to its location.