Beginning To Understand Why A Korth Mongoose Revolver Is Worth $3,499

[MyDogReese]

Great, but not beyond comparison...

First, let me explain that I have four (4) Korths; three .38/.357s (3", 4" and 6") and a .38-only snub nose that I believe was made in the late sixties. I think they are great. The ergonomics and the fit and finish are top notch. The bluing on the 3" is so good, people notice it right off...that, and the funny little red dot cylinder release on the right side of the hammer. The accuracy is excellent in both .38 and .357 and the balance is perfect. When I purchased them they were going in the $5,000 range and were almost completely hand assembled and finished. The Nils grips were custom made for Korth and the guns are beautiful. I also own several Pythons and they, too are great. But I digress.

A while back I bought a gently used S&W 3" Model 27. Just for yucks, I took it to the range with the 3" Korth. At 20 yards, both performed well. I was not able to discern a real winner between the two. Yes, the 27 is heavier than the 3" Korth (which is about "K-frame" girth), but both shot off-hand all six [ProLoad .357] rounds (three groups each) around two inches. I was impressed with both of them.

Finally, as beautiful as the Korths are, the 3" Model 27 was also a beautiful revolver. The top strap is french milled and checkered and the bluing was excellent. The checkered hammer and trigger, and grips are excellent. S&W used to really take pride in the workmanship of their products and the N-Frames were the top of their line.

So, without knocking the Korths or the Pythons, I can definitely tell all you M24, 25, 27 and 29 owners out there, that you have nothing to be ashamed of. When it comes to classic revolvers, you are holding one of the best.

MDR

 

[Walkingwolf]

If I had the extra moolah I would own some Korths, but since I don't I am thrilled with all my others, including Smiths, and Rugers.

I even own a couple of those perfection handguns.

 

[DocB]

If spending too much money on something new is the way you roll, then buy that Korth. As for me, I like to wait for such things to drop out of the sky for "much" less money. It really doesn't matter how much money you have or don't have. God created wisdom first. It just doesn't seem like He created enough to go around.

 

[dwever]

If spending too much money on something new is the way you roll, then buy that Korth. As for me, I like to wait for such things to drop out of the sky for "much" less money. It really doesn't matter how much money you have or don't have. God created wisdom first. It just doesn't seem like He created enough to go around.

Have you actually held or fired one yet or still just "looking at pictures of it" as in January:

Yup, a dog's rear end! I hope the developers of this Mongoose gun are reading this thread. It would be very enlightening for them especially after being noted in American Handgunner. In general, I have a lot of problems with the gun just looking at pictures of it; but, the biggest problem is the price. Insane! With $3500 I have a very good chance of picking up maybe 10 vintage Smiths this new year. All of them with solid investment/return potential.

 

[Andyd]

I have Nill grips on a lot of my handguns and Willi Korth struck a deal with Nill to manufacture the grips for them in 1969. At that time Nill senior just started out and, as far as I know, this was the first factory order - for Korth it was a tremendous improvement.

In-house manufactured grips:

Nills, manufactured to Willi Korths specs:

Mydogreese,

your Korth was made in 1964/1965 in a contract for the Hamburg port police in two and four inch versions only but the contract was cancelled and the guns liquidated through private channels. While well made, they lack the double action roller bearing. I have the four inch version, of which about 481 were manufactured, while about 482 guns with two inch barrels were made. These also have the short coil spring that isn't encapsulated, yet, and the trigger action is noticeably inferior in double action compared to well set up post 1969 samples.

iPac,

Korth added plasma coating to their options later, I am unsure about the exact year that it was introduced but in 2007 they offered polished blue, plasma in polished and matte silver, plasma polished blue.

In order to show you guys better how the roller bearing works, I took the hand off. The wheels can be changed and really give very different stacking but I doubt that 1 out of 20 Korth owners, besides Michael Zeleny and me, will try to do that by themselves.

 

[amazingflapjack]

K or L...

The guy in the video doesn't even know that K frame and L frame guns have the same grip frame.

Or maybe he was hoping that WE wouldn't know that(?).

 

[amazingflapjack]

I have a couple of N frame S&W's that are not current production-or even close to it- that have been through the machine shop, so to speak, and they are good beyond any possible chance of my being able to take full, or even close, advantage of their quality. JMHO. And I may have 2500.00 in the 2 of them, so that might be 3500.00 in present day dollars-for the 2 of them.

 

[Sevens]

The gentleman mentioned a few times (Michael Zeleny) offers high end gun on Gunbroker under the user name "larvatus" and his listings are often a treat to look at and read even when you aren't in the market.

In particular, I get a smile when I read the opening of his item description:

If you bought a gun from me, take 5% off the final price. If you bought more than one gun, take 10% off. Otherwise tell me a story. Collecting is a relationship business.

 

[Andyd]

The gentleman mentioned a few times (Michael Zeleny) offers high end gun on Gunbroker under the user name "larvatus" and his listings are often a treat to look at and read even when you aren't in the market.

In particular, I get a smile when I read the opening of his item description:

This is whom I would recommend to buy a Korth from, he checks his guns carefully and has researched them intensively. Anything that isn't as it should been will be corrected, he is well known at the Korth factory in Lollar and followed their invitation to the SHOT show, which I unfortunately could not.

"amazingflapjacks wrote:
I have a couple of N frame S&W's that are not current production-or even close to it- that have been through the machine shop, so to speak, and they are good beyond any possible chance of my being able to take full, or even close, advantage of their quality. JMHO. And I may have 2500.00 in the 2 of them, so that might be 3500.00 in present day dollars-for the 2 of them."

Man, sorry that you overpaid! I bought the below Korth for $400something and corrected the challenges to its finish and fixed the frozen action, also put a grip from my spareparts box on.

 

[6string]

Andyd wrote:

"Most so called "shooters", but probably not close to 95%, will not hit the broad side of the barn with anything, not with a $500 Glock, nor with a $6,000 Korth. Those same folks drink wine for the effect, not the taste. Taste for wine needs to be developed over a fairly long - and cost intensive - time and handgunning needs solid fundamentals to be learnt and constantly reinstated and the ammo cost alone is often times prohibitive. Somebody who hangs a B27 at five yards and sprinkles it will never know ..."

I LOVE IT!
Good point about the cost of ammo. Even if you reload, the expense of feeding a firearm often exceeds the cost of said firearm. Depending what you want to achieve, and how serious you are about learning the fundamentals of marksmanship, might be reason to think about the false economics of purchasing inferior tools.
Funny, too, how some folks knocking something like a Korth will fill a safe full of stuff whose cost exceeds that of a Korth, yet they rarely if ever use them....

I met a guy recently at a LGS. He told me his favorite cartridge was the 454 Casull. He loved it so much he owned ten Taurus Raging Bulls. I asked him if he owned a Freedom Arms 454 Casull. His response was that they were too expensive. So, I replied back "If you sold a few of those Tauruses you'd have enough money to buy a Freedom Arms." He just gave me this odd, confused look. Seems to me, if he really liked the 454 Casull, he'd want to own the gun which was originally intended for it and had the build quality to take advantage of it over the long haul of intensive use.
After he left, the shop owner told me that the guy would come in once every week or two and just had to buy something each time. Interestingly, I did notice that he before he left he purchased some piece of junk called a "Jimenez".

I think this anecdote bears some relevance to the topic at hand...

 

[Andyd]

6string,

I hope that you will not be disappointed when I am telling the story of my 100,000 plus round S&W 22A here. I had this nice 1952 vintage S&W K-22 that I had bought for the princely sum of $250 plus tax when the kids were in kindergarden ( kindergarden was expensive enough!). When I started corrupting the kids, taking them shooting more often a few years later, that fine old K-22 was handled roughly and in an effort to protect my dear gun for future generations, I got a used S&W 22A for $125 plus tax about 17 years ago. We shot well over 100,000 rounds through the gun in the next ten years and while the gun needed some repairs, it is still going strong and does not just have a place in our safes, but a place in the boys' hearts.

With today's ammo cost, figuring only $ 7 for 100 rounds, we burnt $7,000 through that little gun.

Nevertheless, it was worth it. Both are handgunners and reloaders and I am proud to say that they can now shoot better than me.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Andyd wrote:

"Most so called "shooters", but probably not close to 95%, will not hit the broad side of the barn with anything, not with a $500 Glock, nor with a $6,000 Korth. Those same folks drink wine for the effect, not the taste. Taste for wine needs to be developed over a fairly long - and cost intensive - time and handgunning needs solid fundamentals to be learnt and constantly reinstated and the ammo cost alone is often times prohibitive. Somebody who hangs a B27 at five yards and sprinkles it will never know ..."

I LOVE IT!
Good point about the cost of ammo. Even if you reload, the expense of feeding a firearm often exceeds the cost of said firearm. Depending what you want to achieve, and how serious you are about learning the fundamentals of marksmanship, might be reason to think about the false economics of purchasing inferior tools.
Funny, too, how some folks knocking something like a Korth will fill a safe full of stuff whose cost exceeds that of a Korth, yet they rarely if ever use them....

I met a guy recently at a LGS. He told me his favorite cartridge was the 454 Casull. He loved it so much he owned ten Taurus Raging Bulls. I asked him if he owned a Freedom Arms 454 Casull. His response was that they were too expensive. So, I replied back "If you sold a few of those Tauruses you'd have enough money to buy a Freedom Arms." He just gave me this odd, confused look. Seems to me, if he really liked the 454 Casull, he'd want to own the gun which was originally intended for it and had the build quality to take advantage of it over the long haul of intensive use.
After he left, the shop owner told me that the guy would come in once every week or two and just had to buy something each time. Interestingly, I did notice that he before he left he purchased some piece of junk called a "Jimenez".

I think this anecdote bears some relevance to the topic at hand...

My problem is~~~I am not the government, and don't feel like it is on me to tell people how to spend their money. If they want to buy a thousand Hi Points by the grace of the lord, and the constitution I support it.

 

[gnystrom]

ANDYD:
I sit in awe of your collection, taste in the finer things, and your knowledge of what you own.

 

[iPac]

In order to show you guys better how the roller bearing works, I took the hand off. The wheels can be changed and really give very different stacking but I doubt that 1 out of 20 Korth owners, besides Michael Zeleny and me, will try to do that by themselves.

I also take my hobbies very seriously and always try to become as much an expert as I can in them. That expertise is usually relegated to areas that interest me most, meaning certain types of models, designs, and eras. I am currently a post-war2 Colt V spring enthusiast and have done a lot of study on the Python. I even created a very comprehensive buying guide for Pythons that covers everything from factory detail changes to judging refinishes and about everything in between. Haven't shared it anywhere yet and probably won't for certain reasons.

So learning to work on and repair revolvers is just part of the hobby for me. I don't like paying others to do things that I can learn and do myself. I also like to stick with guns that have readily available parts, which could be an issue with Korths.

Regardless, if I had a Korth, I would be learning the mechanical design and adjusting the action like they were meant to do. I guess this drive and desire to learn is what separates truly dedicated gun enthusiasts from the rest. Collecting is of little interest to me. It's all hands on shooting and use here. When mechanical design and function is what gets you excited, then Korths have an appeal.

 

[BigBill]

I just read a review about the best revolvers in 357 magnum. They rated the Manurhin the best 357mag revolver. Made in France.

 

[6string]

Hi Andyd,
Not disappointed at all. Some guys have great luck, too, with the various Ruger MKI-MKIV 22s.
Personally, I love those old Remington single shot 22 rifles that we used back in junior rifle. Those things just kept shooting! So, I know and respect what you mean when you say they have a place not only in your safe but in your hearts!
But, since we're talking DA revolvers, I've seen too many new N frame S&Ws worn out in a year, just from shooting them 100-200 rounds a week, (wadcutter loads, single action only... Bullseye club matches). I've got a M29 that's been to the factory twice, and twice more to two factory trained gunsmiths all within a couple years. It's never seen anything steady but light target loads. Similar thing with my brother's M27.
The funny thing is, while I had this trouble with the then-new stuff, my pre-war 2nd model Hand Ejector in 455 not only shot match worthy scores, it never gave me any trouble. Go figure!

 

[Andyd]

...
But, since we're talking DA revolvers, I've seen too many new N frame S&Ws worn out in a year, just from shooting them 100-200 rounds a week, (wadcutter loads, single action only... Bullseye club matches). ...

That's basically only 5,000 to 11,000 rounds. My S&W 14-2 and several M19-2 and -3s, as well as a surplus M65 have seen multiples of that when I suffered a serious falling plate addiction.

I just got a S&W M27-2 and hope that it will give me better service than what you experienced!

 

[6string]

"That's basically only 5,000 to 11,000 rounds."

Yes! They were ordered from a distributer and arrived with 0.010" B-C gap, and both failed to come to full lock-up on slow SA cocking. That's was for starters. I guess when they're not set up right a lot of things maybe just work against each other? Broken or worn out hands were a big problem, and both needed new sears to correct a dangerous "push off" condition. There were some other problems that came up, too. Living in Canada at the time, these repairs were tremendously problematic, as each time a special permit-to-convey was needed from the regional firearms control officer (a 40 mile round trip from home, plus a couple hours waiting in the lobby) to allow shipment or delivery to a gunsmith. Anyone who read any of the Zeleny articles cited elsewhere may recall his comment on the significance of this sort of problem for European shooters. Thus, his speculation that an investment in a much more durable item, such as a Korth or Manurhin, is well worth the cost.
Anyhow, the 29 eventually got a much needed rebuild at the factory, and the 27 got sold. Fortunately, a later LSI era 25-5 proved much better, as did a few 24-3s, and another 29-3.
Have you known any IHMSA shooters that used 29s? (I've known three or four such guys). They just don't seem to hold up under hard use, or maybe I should more fairly say the ones I saw then didn't.

Going back to the original topic, would it be accurate to say that it would be a rare Korth or Manurhin MR73 that left the factory (workshop?) short of a properly tuned set-up?

Jim

 

[chief38]

Seems like a well thought out and very high quality Revolver. BUT...... for $3500 bucks I'd sooner buy a registered Magnum or another Colt SAA.

I do believe that out of the box it would put a new Smith to shame in smoothness, adjustability and QC, but since I only buy vintage Smiths and do my own smithing, I'm not able to justify the HUGE $$ gap. Aside from which, it would take me years to get use to it's Butt Ugly looks - LOL!!!

 

[Da Old Bear]

I have a 4", .357 Magnum five shot Korth with the vent rib barrel. I've had it since the late '60s and frankly, have shot it very little.

If I recall correctly (don't have the pistol in front of me) one of the German proofs is dated "67", so I assume that is when the revolver was made.

I have a factory letter wherein Korth states that they made only 300 - 350 examples of that particular model.

And, if I could figure out a way to post a pic, I would. Ha! Got it, I think.