Being a good shot you could fail to get your CCL !!

[Magload]

When I qualified with the M-16 way back when, mi shot a ragged hole in the target. Smart alik instructor gave me the same story. I told him to count the misses then and subtract that from 90, the number of scored shots fired. Seeing as there were no errant holes, I quailed as expert.

Don't ask me to do that with a handgun though. No so good there.

My grandson is in Army boot camp and the first qual with the M16 put all shots in one hole. They made him do it again as they didn't believe he didn't miss one. he did the same thing the second time so had to shoot it a third time ans spread them out in the bullseye. Well he hadn't shot before this except in Call of Duty but they said he maybe off to sniper school.

 

[stealth01]

STOP!!!!!

OK, wait a minute... Somewhere here we have to assume common sense comes into play, even in Illinois! But some of the claims made here make me breathe heavy... When we refer to a single hole, multiple rounds through a single hole give obvious indications of "multiple rounds" entering the same hole.

This image is a 5 round group of .22 LR... One can look at the hole and ascertain multiple rounds went through the same hole... And when I see a group like that I sure as hell don't declare there were four misses...

 

[Muss Muggins]

The following is the answer I received today on the question of how the shooting qualification is scored .. And it does seem that under a instructors discretion you could fall !! It is also stated that the instructors are trained and not just given their instructors license after paying a fee !!

Dear XXXXXXXX,

The scoring criteria is presented in the Firearms Concealed Carry Act, as you have acknowledged in your email. The instructors are required to score the the qualification shoots as ordered in the Act. However, the Illinois State Police does not provide a precise method to instructors on how to handle rounds that penetrate the same entry location on the target. The certified instructors have all been trained to a certain degree on how to handle these scenarios. They are allowed to use their discretion. If a student questions the scoring, they should direct their question to their instructor first and foremost. Thank you.


Illinois State Police
Firearms Services Bureau
Concealed Carry Section

Apology accepted . . .

 

[Handgun Hunter]

When I took my concealed carry "class" in the 90s, we just sat and listened to a lecture about not shooting unless your life is in danger and watched a couple NRA gun safety videos. There was no shooting at all and no training on firearms at all. I guess we were spared the one-hole nightmare. The funny thing is Florida has a very good record as far as concealed carrying citizens are concerned. I read somewhere a study showed the crime rate of cops in Florida was higher than concealed carriers. Not that I'm bashing cops. It's just that there are few problems with people carrying guns.

Last night on the news they had a report about retired cops carrying and showed some of them shooting. Some of them carried revolvers (understandable, since many of them retired before revolvers were left behind by law enforcement) and some of them were firing single action at no more than 15 yards. None of them produced decent groups. They didn't have to worry about the "one-hole nightmare" at all.

 

[Whitwabit]

OK, wait a minute... Somewhere here we have to assume common sense comes into play, even in Illinois! But some of the claims made here make me breathe heavy... When we refer to a single hole, multiple rounds through a single hole give obvious indications of "multiple rounds" entering the same hole.

This image is a 5 round group of .22 LR... One can look at the hole and ascertain multiple rounds went through the same hole... And when I see a group like that I sure as hell don't declare there were four misses...

I agree but looking at the hole with out knowing the number of rounds shot .. could you say there was more then 2 in the hole ??

 

[Muss Muggins]

I agree but looking at the hole with out knowing the number of rounds shot .. could you say there was more then 2 in the hole ??

You usually can, actually much more often than not. Push the paper back together from the rear of the target. Generally very easy to pick out the number of rounds. The "same hole" statement is almost always not true. You can see the edges of more than one round, but you have to want to look.

 

[The Big D]

Wow! Are you serious?

They are 'trained' re: how to handle scoring discrepancies. Not 'trained' per se. YOUR 'instructor' (and I use that term loosely) apparently skipped that component.

For the record, if I ever shot a course of fire with X number of rounds with the same number of holes I would be embarrassed. Every shooter should score a BIG hole somewhere on the target ...certainly from the point/shoot spots.

Be safe.

The following is the answer I received today on the question of how the shooting qualification is scored .. And it does seem that under a instructors discretion you could fall !! It is also stated that the instructors are trained and not just given their instructors license after paying a fee !!

Dear XXXXXXXX,

The scoring criteria is presented in the Firearms Concealed Carry Act, as you have acknowledged in your email. The instructors are required to score the the qualification shoots as ordered in the Act. However, the Illinois State Police does not provide a precise method to instructors on how to handle rounds that penetrate the same entry location on the target. The certified instructors have all been trained to a certain degree on how to handle these scenarios. They are allowed to use their discretion. If a student questions the scoring, they should direct their question to their instructor first and foremost. Thank you.


Illinois State Police
Firearms Services Bureau
Concealed Carry Section

 

[Whitwabit]

Apology accepted . . .

No apology .. a person could fail .. if he happened to shoot 2-3 rounds through another hole but sprayed the other shots over the target missing the target completely with 7 or 8 shots the instructor could fail that person under those conditions..

So yes it is possible to fail while hitting the target the required 21 times out of 30 shots .. I agree it is wrong but I'm sure it has happen before and will again ..

We had one man shoot the target next to his as there were over 30 holes in the one mans target .. I think the man shooting simple got nervous when the target was moved out to the 10 yard line ..


And that was the whole point of me starting this thread ..

I don't agree with it if some one were to fail .. but just bring up the fact that it is possible the way the law is now written ..

 

[Muss Muggins]

For the record, if I ever shot a course of fire with X number of rounds with the same number of holes I would be embarrassed. Every shooter should score a BIG hole somewhere on the target ...certainly from the point/shoot spots.

Be safe.

Well, if it's untimed and you're target shooting, sure. If it's timed, targets are turning to face, and you're drawing from concealment to get off two or three shots in seconds, then no. If you're defense shooting and you have one big hole, you're target shooting.

 

[Whitwabit]

They are 'trained' re: how to handle scoring discrepancies. Not 'trained' per se. YOUR 'instructor' (and I use that term loosely) apparently skipped that component.

For the record, if I ever shot a course of fire with X number of rounds with the same number of holes I would be embarrassed. Every shooter should score a BIG hole somewhere on the target ...certainly from the point/shoot spots.

Be safe.

As I said before he wasn't MY instructor ..

Not every shooter .. have you ever looked at the NY police percent of rounds fired that found the intended target .. some years less the 30% .. would think many of those shooters would not have one big hole some where on the target ..

 

[Whitwabit]

Would like to think all who have participated in this discussion ..

Thank You !!

 

[The Big D]

Say what?

Surely you weren't referencing my posts as I haven't shot an untimed course of fire since 1975.

I don't believe in target shooting.

Be safe.

Well, if it's untimed and you're target shooting, sure. If it's timed, targets are turning to face, and you're drawing from concealment to get off two or three shots in seconds, then no. If you're defense shooting and you have one big hole, you're target shooting.

 

[3rdRRU_PhuBai]

50+ years ago at Ft Dix NJ basic training, word in the barracks was that if you qualified well with the M1 rifle you were on the way to the infantry, which didn't suit me.
So I shot whatever was necessary to minimally qualify into the target and the rest into the berm.

 

[Live4Now]

If you shot a single ragged hole, I would have no doubt that you would pass....

 

[jack the toad]

In Okla, targets are not scored for accuracy as there is no minimum score required. So I guess you can miss and still pass, just do it in a safe manner. I've heard some that think this COF is lacking and I sure don't know the reasoning behind these requirements but IMO the 2nd amendment doesn't mention requiring a minimum qual score either.
Okla is typically gun friendly and is likely ahead of Illinois but it could be better if our governor Mary Fallin would get on board and quit vetoing some gun legislation bills.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Not like that here. One ragged hole is fine. As proof, I've got my carry permit.

 

[Old TexMex]

Threads like this make me glad I have the friends I do.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

If I ever had to qualify for a handgun permit in Illinoise, I think I'd use 45ACP CCI Shotshell.

 

[Muss Muggins]

If I ever had to qualify for a handgun permit in Illinoise, I think I'd use 45ACP CCI Shotshell.

I was thinking Governor with .410 birdshot, but we're on the same track . . .

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I was thinking Governor with .410 birdshot, but we're on the same track . . .

Yeah, that ought to keep the OP's instructor busy counting individual holes.