Brandishing and Threatening to pull a weapon
- Thread starter Bill_Johnson
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TexasArmed
Member
I agree. I carry two Revolvers, one a J Frame 38 Spl in my pocket, the other a CA 44 Spl in a paddle holster. I am too old to engage in a physical fight, and would attempt to change my path. If he turns toward me then I would yell and warn him not to come closer, but if he continues to close, in a threatening manner I would draw, and if he still did not stop I would fire if necessary.
In Texas you do not have to wait to be assaulted before acting in self defense. In any case if he is deterred wihout one having to use deadly force, the police should immediately be called because the guy could be looking for another victim, and his story may be different from yours. I also never carry my handguns witout also carrying my cell phone.
For places like parking lots, manual car washes, I like pocket carry but in a "POCKET HOLSTER" because one does not have to expose the weapon that you can already have you hand on it ready to draw.
I live in a rough area, where pepper spray may not stop a drug addict who wants to use your wallet for his next fix. Much of the time I may also have a handicapped adult child with me, and I neither of us are able to retreat, and in Texas we have no duty to retreat from a criminal. While I can't retreat or outrun the criminal, and am dissabled, there is nothing wrong with my trigger finger, but only as a last resort.
I just read in the paper about a 77 year old woman who was murdered and stabbed I think 30 something times. The predators like to pick disabled old people to finance their drug habit.
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Hook686
US Veteran
Lost Lake wrote:
As I understand it if the guy is coming at you and is inside 21 feet by the time you finish saying, 'Stop', his knife will be in you. You really think that if some guy has it in him to cut you that you have time to talk with him ? Good luck.
As I understand it if the guy is coming at you and is inside 21 feet by the time you finish saying, 'Stop', his knife will be in you. You really think that if some guy has it in him to cut you that you have time to talk with him ? Good luck.
Well how about you just cruise up three posts and see what Ironhand wrote?
He didn't pull his gun but he sure made the miscreant aware that he had one. And the bad guy turned tail.
So if I'm being followed and I lift my shirt inside of my holster showing the butt of my gun, I am brandishing, and there's a real good chance the bad guy is going to make a decision.
If a guy is charging you, yeah you have less time to act. And no need to brandish with the notion you aren't going to use it. The most likely scenario is a couple of thugs start surrounding you and talking smack and you need to let them know you are prepared to defend yourself. You most likely will show you have a gun and they will leave.
It happened to my brother not long ago in Seattle. Couple punks hanging out on the street started talking about his wife and saying she was pretty as he was walking to his car. She jumped in and locked the door, he got in and the punks surrounded his car, one put his foot on the hood, one was leering in her window and one was going around back.
He pulled out his 41 magnum and leveled it at the punk on the front hood. Suddenly everything was 'real cool man, didn't mean nothin', just playin' with ya man', and they scattered.
Brandished, no shots fired, end of story.
I agree, I look as if I'm just walking along with my hand in my pocket, Yet I have my snubby in hand "just in case."
sbeatty1983
Member
I was walking to work the other day and in a hurry and mad since my car wouldnt start. I was minding my own business and half way there when SOME CRAZY OLD FART pulled a gun on me and yelled "GET AWAY FROM ME". I would have called the cops on the crazy ****ER but didnt have my phone. A couple blocks later I was detained for "looking threatening" to the guy. It was all straightened out with the cops, but I still lost my job for being late. THANKS CRAZY OLD FART!!!
You are going to have to use some common sense. You're not going to think of every scenario beforehand. And you're not going to be able to think about the law during the event. If I FEEL I need to pull my gun I'm going to pull it. Worry about the rest later.
The thing is, you are supposed to KNOW the law beforehand. It needs to be part of your reflexes. When you are being stared down or run at is not the time to think about it, you need to know your rights and they should be part of how you respond.
Obviously if you truly feel your life is in danger, chances are (hopefully anyway) the laws of your state should be in line with how you respond anyway.
But the whole "brandishing" thing is pretty much illegal everywhere.
You can't KNOW something with certainty beforehand that is up to interpretation after the fact. With potential evolving "facts" to boot.
If your gut tells you to act but you're unsure of the legal implications in that exact scenario, you're not going to act? But really, if you have all that time to ponder future legal proceedings you could probably just walk away and get into your car.
In FL anything reasonable and you're probably OK but I don't care where I'm at, I'm not letting some dude kill me cause I'm worried about the politicians, the law, and lawyers.
If your gut tells you to act but you're unsure of the legal implications in that exact scenario, you're not going to act? But really, if you have all that time to ponder future legal proceedings you could probably just walk away and get into your car.
In FL anything reasonable and you're probably OK but I don't care where I'm at, I'm not letting some dude kill me cause I'm worried about the politicians, the law, and lawyers.
Yes, I even said that. In "most states" if you are truly in imminent danger of death or bodily harm, you have the right to act (maybe not in New York or Chicago?). Some states you have to try to make some attempt to flee first, which you probably should do anyway, even if not legally required to.
But what I was specifically referring to was the "man running towards me and I got scared and pulled my gun" comments. But first and foremost you need to know the laws of your state.
I believe the law says you must be in fear of your life or of severe bodily injury to yourself or others.
You don't have to prove you were afraid, you just need to be in a situation where your peers would agree they would be afraid.
On a dark street with two hoodlums following you even after you made a lot of evasive moves? I would think you would be afraid for your life.
A man you accidentally cut off in traffic who has now stopped you and is walking toward you with a knife saying he will kill you? I would think you would be in fear for your life.
I believe in these instances you could pull your weapon and hold it at your side and let the bad guys see it and not get in any trouble at all.
However, walking through a seedy part of town with your gun on your hip or waving it around would be considered brandishing. Even if you were scared to be in that neighborhood, without a definite fear you can articulate I think it is brandishing.
You don't have to prove you were afraid, you just need to be in a situation where your peers would agree they would be afraid.
On a dark street with two hoodlums following you even after you made a lot of evasive moves? I would think you would be afraid for your life.
A man you accidentally cut off in traffic who has now stopped you and is walking toward you with a knife saying he will kill you? I would think you would be in fear for your life.
I believe in these instances you could pull your weapon and hold it at your side and let the bad guys see it and not get in any trouble at all.
However, walking through a seedy part of town with your gun on your hip or waving it around would be considered brandishing. Even if you were scared to be in that neighborhood, without a definite fear you can articulate I think it is brandishing.
nitestalker700
Member
Always notify the local PD. This covers your behind. I think Massad Ayoob wrote something on this. I believe it is in Backwoods Home Magazine May-June 2012 edition. But the capson spay is a good option.
Packard
Member
I had a situation about 30 years ago where an angry man approached me while carrying a hammer (no nails in sight, so I assumed it was a weapon). His young son had been frightened by my dog and ran to his father and told him I sicced the dog on him.
I saw him approaching (as well did my Doberman). I drew and held to my side, my .38 revolver. I held the gun tight to the back of my hip and I am certain it was not visible to the guy. But I was ready.
I was able to diffuse the situation by conversation (a 130 pound Doberman on a 6 foot leash helps too). But I think that my approach of making a discrete draw and hiding the weapon from view was wise. It could be brought into play very quickly (with no fumbling), and it would not require a police report.
On Long Island, where I lived at the time, if you drew your weapon you had to report the situation to the police. Of course if no one saw the weapon, no report required.
There is the risk that the police might feel that the drawing of the weapon was inappropriate and you could lose your licence. I think that would be the case throughout New York.
For instance if you displayed your gun to cut ahead on the Starbucks line you would probably be in trouble. Even if you don't draw it. And what you feel is reasonable might not meet the legal threshold for reasonable.
A discrete draw is an excellent one to practice. The pocket holster is perfect for this. But you should practice this anyhow. You always have time if you are making a discrete draw. And the gun should be largely hidden from all to the greatest extent possible.
In the old cowboy movies you saw a lot of discrete draws at the poker table. Everyone understands the advantage of a gun already in the hand and out of the holster.
I saw him approaching (as well did my Doberman). I drew and held to my side, my .38 revolver. I held the gun tight to the back of my hip and I am certain it was not visible to the guy. But I was ready.
I was able to diffuse the situation by conversation (a 130 pound Doberman on a 6 foot leash helps too). But I think that my approach of making a discrete draw and hiding the weapon from view was wise. It could be brought into play very quickly (with no fumbling), and it would not require a police report.
On Long Island, where I lived at the time, if you drew your weapon you had to report the situation to the police. Of course if no one saw the weapon, no report required.
There is the risk that the police might feel that the drawing of the weapon was inappropriate and you could lose your licence. I think that would be the case throughout New York.
For instance if you displayed your gun to cut ahead on the Starbucks line you would probably be in trouble. Even if you don't draw it. And what you feel is reasonable might not meet the legal threshold for reasonable.
A discrete draw is an excellent one to practice. The pocket holster is perfect for this. But you should practice this anyhow. You always have time if you are making a discrete draw. And the gun should be largely hidden from all to the greatest extent possible.
In the old cowboy movies you saw a lot of discrete draws at the poker table. Everyone understands the advantage of a gun already in the hand and out of the holster.
MaximumLawman
Member
How does this "cover your behind"? We had a guy not long ago make a report about some guy attacking him. He made the report to "have it on record" which is the other usual way people say "cover my behind". He didn't count on us tracking down the other side of the story and determining that the guy who initially reported the assault was the aggressor. This guy was arrested and no doubt is maintaining that he did nothing wrong and should have been more credible because he not only reported the incident but also reported it first. The best way to cover your behind is to be right and be discreet.
toyfarmerjj
Member
My grandfather always told me told me, "Two men with a gun, someone is going to get hurt." My point... what if the other man also has a weapon. This could complicate the situation... there is no simple answer. It is always use hindsight... but in the heat of the moment all we have is our gut feelings and best judgement. I have the greatest respect for LEOs... they have to make these judgements on the street and expected to be correct a 100% of the time.
clum50
Member
I'm a retired police officer offering my opinion. In both cases I believe you are not warranted to brandish or draw your firearm. You should take reasonable action to keep yourself safe such as create distance while maintaining awareness. I don't believe in drawing and hidiing your firearm behind your leg either, you're still concealing it and doing so may only escallate the situation and you might draw unneeded attention to yourself. Doing so may also provoke things farther and guy may have had nothing in mind at all, now who looks like the bad guy. If you're confronted, threatened and/or about to be hurt, robbed or maimed, take care of business. You do have an expectation (by the courts) to act prudently, but you need not give up you rights to defend yourself either. Remember, feeling threatened is your perception. Only you need to articulate what you did and why. Clear as mud isn't it
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Brandishing is dangerous and ill advised and in Texas against the law. I am a firm believer in the term "last resort" to protect my life or the life of another. I'll never shoot anyone over a car or a tv or a few bux...unless I'm TRULY in fear of my life. If I'm ever assaulted to that extent I will pull and fire with out hesitation. Always ALWAYS as a last resort but when it's time I have no problem with it and will NOT hesitate. If and when I pull it somebody's gettin' shot. The time for talkin' and threatenin' is over.
TexasArmed
Member
Would you provide a statute quotation regarding "brandishing", as I live in Texas and in Texas it is "intentional unconcealment", that is a problem. Accidental unconcealment can and does happen. I too would never accept being assaulted before drawing. And if I am in the car, and when the glass is breaking as well as in my home they will not get farther than the door if I can stop them.
Armed or unarmed someone committing assault on a disabled or elderly person can result in that person getting shot with their own gun.
But for the term "brandishing" I don't think that term is
defined in the Texas Statutes. I may be wrong, but if so I have not found it. Showing someone your gun though and someone else sees it, would be a violation of the Texas Statutes, since that would be intentional unconcealment.
Your shirt being blown up by the wind, and part of the holster being revealed would not violate the law. It might cost you a a ride perhaps.
Springfeildkid585
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I've said before on this forum, attitude goes a long way. I had a shady individual approaching me in a dimly lit area, he had his hand in his pocket. I am a student at Indiana State University and as such have to store my gun in a safe about twenty minutes from my dorm (with a family member i trust) so at that time I was unarmed, but I still had my armed state of mind. Body language can tell people you are not an easy target and that the need to find someone else to bother. In your above situation, your description is pretty vague and likely to get you in trouble for brandishing. My rule of thumb is if you're going to present, draw. If you're going to draw, be justified to shoot. Most laws state something along the lines of imminent, reasonable fear for life or sever bodily harm to shoot.
I have no statute quotation on brandishing. I concur with you on the accidental unconcealment issue but what ever the language is of the law is I believe that it is illegal to intentionally draw your weapon to threaten or intimidate someone.
Say you are driving down the road and another driver starts road raging on you. If you pull your gun and point it at him or even just show it to him you have committed a crime and will likely loose your license to carry.
Keep it concealed until you must use it as a last resort.
Say you are driving down the road and another driver starts road raging on you. If you pull your gun and point it at him or even just show it to him you have committed a crime and will likely loose your license to carry.
Keep it concealed until you must use it as a last resort.
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