C&R Holders- READ This!!!

Lee,

I certainly agree with everything that has been written here and commend you for your effort. I support the effort to get the NRA on board for this. I would also suggest that we try to get other organizations on board such as the SWCA and the OGCA, both of which I am a member, and any other collector organizations.

Don
 
I support this effort, and will be writing letters. Don't you think it would be appropriate to also C/C the local Postmaster? In my case, he is gun friendly, and formerly chairman of the Friends of NRA local committee.
 
Lee, would you cross post this to the other forum topic heads such as the lounge and 1945 to present?
Done.

Don't you think it would be appropriate to also C/C the local Postmaster?
I doubt that would accomplish much. It might even cause some of the nervous or anti-gun types to contact the Postmaster AGAINST a change.

What would be wise is to include copied sections of the BATFE regs which show that the BATFE is completely happy with a C&R holder being able to acquire C&R guns ANYWHERE, and the fact that an FFL holder CAN SHIP to a C&R by common carrier.
 
How about one of the forum wordsmiths posting a draft letter that says what needs to be said in a clear, concise manner? Then a lazy redneck like me could print it, sign it and mail it.
 
Instead of trying to benefit only C&R holders (with the limitations on firearms that would apply), I would much rather see efforts put forth so ANY GOOD CITIZEN (anyone that doesn't have a felony record) can mail ANY firearm to ANYONE except a felon. Now that would be something worth doing!

Dale53
 
Originally posted by Dale53:
Instead of trying to benefit only C&R holders (with the limitations on firearms that would apply), I would much rather see efforts put forth so ANY GOOD CITIZEN (anyone that doesn't have a felony record) can mail ANY firearm to ANYONE except a felon. Now that would be something worth doing!

"

Dale53

I would totally disagree with this proposal.
Who would decide who is a "GOOD CITIZEN"?

And how would you determine that the person getting the gun is not a felon or otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm?

ANYONE can ship a gun of any type to anyone with an FFL or C&R using UPS, FEDEX, etc. I think that it would be good to allow C&R's to ship handguns viia USPS.
 
I agree with M-1911. The controllability of the government to determine who is a "Good Citizen" would be so restrictive no one would be able to ship anything. Keep it to appropriately licensed individuals, but let them use all shipping avenues available.
 
I have a C&R. The lady at the post office doesn't care. In fact, when I handed them the form pictured, they asked what it was. Some workers have told me outright that it was illegal, some have said "as long as both people have a license to do so and it's included in the package". While there is a valid point to the wording of the form, I think it's a case of over thinking things. I would be more worried about one of these delivery folks in a rural area opening the package and stealing it more than anything, or even the gentle touch of the USPS breaking the gun.
 
You're correct, Gary.
Campaigning to secure shipping privileges for non-licensed persons is the fastest way I know to throw 'anti-gun' gas on the fire.
This is a proposal to fine-tune some bad semantics, nothing more.
If you pay for and comply with the laws and rules necessary to keep an FFL or C&R, you DO have a vested interest in this.
Don
 
Originally posted by davepiatt:
I have a C&R. The lady at the post office doesn't care. In fact, when I handed them the form pictured, they asked what it was. Some workers have told me outright that it was illegal, some have said "as long as both people have a license to do so and it's included in the package". While there is a valid point to the wording of the form, I think it's a case of over thinking things. I would be more worried about one of these delivery folks in a rural area opening the package and stealing it more than anything, or even the gentle touch of the USPS breaking the gun.



I covered about the same thing in an email exchange today-
Read it from the BOTTOM UP:



<span class="ev_code_RED">Hi XXX,
I realize what you were saying. Just thought I would explain my viewpoint.
With the possible administration coming- Barack or Billary, I would not be
putting any docs on file that would stand up as a false attestation! Think
about it. PO is supposed to keep a 1508 filed for 1 yr.</span>

----- Original Message -----
From: XXX
To: "Lee Jarrett"
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: C&R and the USPS


> Lee,
> I'm not disagreeing with your point or the suggestion
> that the form needs to be changed. Just thought I'd
> give you some off-forum feedback relating to your
> question.
> XXX


><span class="ev_code_RED"> --- Lee Jarrett wrote:
>
>> Hi XXX,
>> I realize it CAN be done. However, if you look at
>> the form 1508, the wording
>> obviously provides enough evidence to hang one with,
>> IF they ever wanted to
>> pursue it.
>> I won't buy them the rope they hang me with.
>>
>> Do you have anything in writing from that inspector?
>> If he drops dead, does
>> the next guy let you go? Every time you sign a 1508,
>> you are attesting to
>> their wording of "bona fide dealer". Now, go back to
>> the BATFE regs, and it
>> clearly states a C&R is NOT a "dealer".
>> Are you with me yet?
>> My point- you might get away with it forever, BUT,
>> every time you sign the
>> 1508, you provide them with enough evidence to hang
>> you IF some zealous ATF
>> or Postal agent WANTS to.
>> Good Luck,
>> Lee Jarrett</span>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: XXX
>> To: "Lee Jarrett"
>> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 12:35 AM
>> Subject: C&R and the USPS
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Lee,
>> > I ship USPS all the time. I have talked to
>> numerous
>> > USPS people and it's up to the postmaster.
>> >
>> > I even had a gun shipped to me with the barrel
>> > sticking out of the box (nice C&R shipper
>> heh?)...the
>> > postal inspector called me, we talked and he was
>> fine
>> > with my FFL...and only asked "please make sure you
>> use
>> > registered/priority mail"....I now use registered
>> > priority with no worries.
>> >
>> > XXX
 
While there is a valid point to the wording of the form, I think it's a case of over thinking things.


I realize it CAN be done. However, if you look at the form 1508, the wording
obviously provides enough evidence to hang one with, IF they ever wanted to
pursue it.
I won't buy them the rope they hang me with.

Every time you sign a 1508, you are attesting to
their wording of "bona fide dealer". Now, go back to the BATFE regs, and it
clearly states a C&R is NOT a "dealer".
Are you with me yet?
My point- you might get away with it forever, BUT, every time you sign the
1508, you provide them with enough evidence to hang you IF some zealous ATF
or Postal Inspector WANTS to.

With the possibilities coming in the next few months, I would not be
putting any docs on file that would stand up as a false attestation. Think
about it. The PO is supposed to keep a 1508 filed for 1 yr.
 
I would totally disagree with this proposal.
Who would decide who is a "GOOD CITIZEN"?

And how would you determine that the person getting the gun is not a felon or otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm?

ANYONE can ship a gun of any type to anyone with an FFL or C&R using UPS, FEDEX, etc. I think that it would be good to allow C&R's to ship handguns viia USPS.

Gary
You're correct, Gary.
Campaigning to secure shipping privileges for non-licensed persons is the fastest way I know to throw 'anti-gun' gas on the fire.
This is a proposal to fine-tune some bad semantics, nothing more.
If you pay for and comply with the laws and rules necessary to keep an FFL or C&R, you DO have a vested interest in this.
Don

Well said, Gents.
 
The 1508 Form CLEARLY requires the sender to certify the he is a manufacturer or bonafide dealer. This statement rules out C&R holders from shipping "firearms". But, rifles and shotguns are NOT considered firearms and the legal definition. Only handguns are considered firearms
 
The NRA is aware of this issue, and it is on it's very long "to do when possible" list. I've been pushing it via the NRA Gun Collector Committee for about 10 years.

However, the NRA tends to focus it's limited resources on the biggest & most vital firearms issues (appropriately so, in my opinion), of which this one ain't.

I think it's worth reminding NRA that this issue IS important to the membership. I'd suggest that when you write the Postmast, you cc: Chris Cox, head of the NRA-ILA.

Chris Cox
NRA-ILA
11250 Waples Mill Rd.
Fairfax, VA 22030

Chris does an outstanding job, and I suspect it would help him to have copies of letters to be able to show that this is an important issue. You might note on his copy something like "FYI, no response needed, thanks for your work", so he doesn't have to take up valuable staff time responding to each letter.

I'd also suggest you cc: your congresscritters.

If you'd like to cc me, I'll be sure your letter gets to the NRA Gun Collector Committee (the committee that has primarily kept this issue before the NRA):

Jim Supica
POB 14040
Lenexa KS 66285

or email [email protected]

Other issues that the Gun Collector Committee has been hoping to address when politically possible:

* Amnesty period to register unregistered Class III C&R's.

* Designating the NRA National Firearms Museum as a legal recipient of unregistered Class III C&R's.

(Any modification to Class III regs, no matter how sensible, is a tough sale politically btw.)

* Acknowledgement that face to face transfer between dealers is permitted, regardless of location. (ATF position is that face to face transfer of C&R's between licensees is permitted at gun shows, but that does not include face to face transfer of non-C&R's between dealers. A number of knowledgable attorneys question that interpretation, but who wants to be a test case?)

I think the issue of permitting non-licensess to mail handguns directly to dealers might also be worth adding to that list. As has been mentioned, right now non-licensees can use common carriers (UPS, FedEx) to ship to dealers, but not the USPS. (Although I think that will be another tough one to actually get -- the anti's will doubtless raise "safety" issues associated with the possibility of dolts shipping loaded handguns thru the USPS).

I've emailed a link to this discussion to Chris Cox and to Wayne Anthony Ross, whom we are lucky to have as the Chairman of the NRA Gun Collector Committee.

Jim
 
I have a C&R and would love it if this could happen, but "bona fide dealer" is the problem. A C&R holder is a collector, not a dealer. The term "dealer" implies that one is in the business of dealing in firearms, i.e., to buy and sell to make a profit.

Personally, I'd rather pay the extra $50 for shipping than to hassle with the BATF. With the coming sea change in Congress and the White House, do you really think the new BATF is going to give you the benefit of the doubt and rule in your favor? An extra $50 is a lot cheaper than paying a good defense attorney to handle a charge of illegal trafficking in firearms.
 
Chuck,

Please read the preceeding posts again. The BATF regs are not at issue here. It is the Postal regs that we are concerned with. I have contacted the BATF on this and they don't care how the handgun is shipped as long as it is going to an FFL and the proper paperwork is completed. This includes C&R FFl's. It is the wording on the 1508 form that needs changed so that the C&R holder can take advantage of the lower rates by using the USPS.
 
My mistake, you're right. But still, do you think the Post Office, of any of the Federal agencies, is going to do anything at all that resembles any effort or risk on their part? This will not boost the USPS profitability and will require work on its effort. Knowing what I (cynically) know about the Government, this is dead on arrival unless we have a champion in Congress to ram it through. After the Virginia Tech shooting incident (and regardless the legality of how the shooter got his weapons), I doubt anybody in Congress, much less the USPS, would entertain letting nondealers mail handguns through the USPS.
 
Originally posted by ChuckS1:
My mistake, you're right. But still, do you think the Post Office, of any of the Federal agencies, is going to do anything at all that resembles any effort or risk on their part? This will not boost the USPS profitability and will require work on its effort. Knowing what I (cynically) know about the Government, this is dead on arrival unless we have a champion in Congress to ram it through. After the Virginia Tech shooting incident (and regardless the legality of how the shooter got his weapons), I doubt anybody in Congress, much less the USPS, would entertain letting nondealers mail handguns through the USPS.

Well, I would not start out with that mindset.
For one thing, I do not think it takes any action by Congress- I believe the Postmaster General can change the regd with a pen stroke, but I could be wrong.
See, the law, that is the BATFE regs, does NOT cover how we ship, only WHO we ship to.
This needs to be approached from the perspective that the POSTAL regs left out one class of Federal Firearms License- the C&R, and therefore, needs correcting. The USPS DOES actively seek business, and is MISSING a lot of revenue here.
I have spent over $250 in ONE day at my PO mailing GUNS. So, the ones they let go to FedEx and UPS would add up!
 
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