Called Speer About Short Bbl. Ammo

[Texas Star]

Last week, I called Speer and asked about .38 and .357 Short Barrel 135 grain Plus P ammo.

I was told that it's okay for snubs and three-inch barrels, but that four-inch and longer barrels might cause the expanded bullet nose to peel back further in tissue, creating more of a wadcutter shape. That will increase penetration, but you have less of a mushroomed shape.

I was assured that their 125 grain (NOT the 135 grain) ammo is quite capable of expanding from four-inch and longer barrels, to maybe 75 yards; certainly to 50 yards. The Speer guy definitely suggested that I use this 125 grain ammo in barrels of four or more inches.

He confirmed my thoughts that my three-inch barreled M60-4 and Ruger SP-101 guns are probably getting a bit over 900FPS from the SB .38 load. And in the SB .357 load, rated at 990FPS from a snub, my three-inch SP is probably getting about 1,040-1,050 FPS. (The S&W M-60-4 is a .38 -only gun.)

He contested my old info from gun magazines that firing a .38 round in a .357 chamber reduces velocity on average of 40 FPS, saying that it's probably much less. He seemed comfortable with about 25 FPS, maybe even less. But he had no such data in front of him.

I thought that enquiring minds might like to know this stuff, straight from the ammo maker. I was surprised that they do not recommend Short Barrel ammo for over three inch barrels. Another Speer rep told me a few years ago that NYPD and LAPD also use it in four-inch barrels. This man last week did not have access to that marketing info, so couldn't say about that aspect. He added that many smaller PD's buy ammo from LE distributors, so Speer doesn't always know which forces are using this Gold Dot ammo. (Major departments do often buy directly from Speer.)

I've adjusted my usage of the Short Barrel ammo in line with this new info.

Oh: he felt that the usual 125 grain load would "probably" expand well at average combat ranges in three-inch barrels. From four or more inches, it will def. work well.

There it is, folks, straight from the horse's mouth. Well, they're mostly hunters, in Idaho. Maybe they'd prefer "from the elk's mouth?"

 

[Sixgun100]

Thank you for the informative post. Just ordered some of the Gold Dot 135 grain .38+P for my new LCR. Hard to find, but did locate some at TargetSportUSA.com. Thanks again.

 

[ArtyM]

I emailed Speer and a tech told me that it was ok to use the 357 SB ammo in barrels up to and including 4", but not any longer. I plan to limit use of the 357 SB to my 1 7/8" gun, but I may try it out in a longer, 4" barrel.
It all depends on what you want the bullet to do. There are alternatives for longer barrels.
I was surprised that the 357 SB load was described to me as a full pressure, not a reduced load.
I believe that NY uses the 38+p SB load, and not the 357 SB, but my only source of information is another forum.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

No ammo company is going to produce ammo that can't be used in a certain barrel length. The lawyers won't allow it. while I'm sure shooting that short barrel ammo in a 2" or 3" barrel will produce the best results shooting it in a 4" barrel (which I have done) will work just fine even if it's not going to produce a textbook mushroom on the bullet.

IMO marketing and forums have made way too much of perfect looking ammo after it's shot. If it expands and holds together it has done it's job, IMO of course...

 

[Texas Star]

No ammo company is going to produce ammo that can't be used in a certain barrel length. The lawyers won't allow it. while I'm sure shooting that short barrel ammo in a 2" or 3" barrel will produce the best results shooting it in a 4" barrel (which I have done) will work just fine even if it's not going to produce a textbook mushroom on the bullet.

IMO marketing and forums have made way too much of perfect looking ammo after it's shot. If it expands and holds together it has done it's job, IMO of course...

Your point is well made, but the Speer tech probably was trying to explain what was optimum use, and he did warn that the petals of the expanded bullet can be peeled back farther when fired in longer barrels, reducing its optimum performance. Thus, he advised a different load for longer barrels.

Even if the mushroomed bullet loses some of its diameter, it will function as a full wadcutter and that is still better than a RN bullet that doesn't open at all.

 

[Texas Star]

I emailed Speer and a tech told me that it was ok to use the 357 SB ammo in barrels up to and including 4", but not any longer. I plan to limit use of the 357 SB to my 1 7/8" gun, but I may try it out in a longer, 4" barrel.
It all depends on what you want the bullet to do. There are alternatives for longer barrels.
I was surprised that the 357 SB load was described to me as a full pressure, not a reduced load.
I believe that NY uses the 38+p SB load, and not the 357 SB, but my only source of information is another forum.

You are correct. The previous Speer tech told me they use the .38 Gold Dot SB load. I don't think that NYC has ever authorized any .357's. NYSP have, but I've never seen which ammo they issued.

 

[Florida J Frame]

I contacted Speer two years ago in reference to ammo for my TRR8 and was told the same thing. For optimum performance in the 5" barrel they suggested the 125 gr +P Gold Dot. They said the SB version was designed for 3" and shorter.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I believe the 125 GD has a heavier jacket on it than the 135gr GD.

I had a 125gr GD fail to even start to open up at a J frame Nyclad speed developed load for a 38 special loading.

With one more inch of barrel I would not have any worries about this bullet in a SD mode. 50 fps can make a lot of difference on how a bullet performs.

 

[Ben_hutcherson]

Thanks for finding this out and passing it along to us.

A 4" K frame is my usual bedside/glovebox/OC gun. I've switched over to carrying the Remington "FBI" load, but for a while was using the 135gr SB Gold Dots.

I'd heard a while back(I don't recall the source, so can't reference it here) that NYPD used the SB load in both snubs and in 4" "service" revolvers, so kept it in my 4" K frames based on that. Based on what the Speer guys said, though, it sounds like the FBI load is probably a better choice for the 4".

 

[Doug M.]

NYPD probably does that because it is easier to keep track of ammo and compliance with the regs. Remember that most cops, especially in places like NYC, are not gun guys, and their bosses even less so. The days of hunters like Cirillo and Allard are LONG over. Someone like that would scare the daylights out of the Geldings in Charge.

There are not a lot of service revolvers left there; the uniformed holster guns are 9mm pistols. Only grandfathered older officers, fewer every year, carry revolvers as primaries. (NYPD is big, and the fewer than 600 left who carry revolvers is a piddling percentage.) Most revolvers are BUGS.

Bullet issues: Most bullets are designed to perform well in testing in a certain velocity range. The predictions are imperfect/not linear, but pretty good. As a result, it is possible that the different loads will in fact have different enough performance that the recommendation for savvy users would be to use the 125gr. in 4'+ barrels, and keep the 135s for shorter ones.

 

[Texas Star]

The Speer tech with whom I spoke a couple of years ago did have feedback from both NYPD and LAPD, both using the 135 grain SB loading in all .38's. He said that they found it very effective.

But he had no specific shooting incident info.

Considering that many NYPD cops tend to spray with hi-cap 9mm's, it is significant that the .38-armed officers usually win their fights. To be sure, some of that is probably due to better tactics than the average thug uses.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You are correct. The previous Speer tech told me they use the .38 Gold Dot SB load. I don't think that NYC has ever authorized any .357's. NYSP have, but I've never seen which ammo they issued.

I think you're right about the .357 Magnums but I will add the NYPD did authorize the Speer Short Barrel .38 Special +P ammo for use in a 4" Service Revolver.

 

[NE450No2]

I can say that I have done some testing with the Speer 200 gr. 44 Mag short bbl ammo, and I like it enough to carry it for my urban, city ammo.

 

[riverrat38]

The 357 MAG and the 38 SPL plus P ammo use the same bullets.
I don't think its reasonable for them to say its ok to use the MAG ammo out of a 3 inch gun, but not the plus P version out of a 4 inch gun. The 3 inch MAG should actually be a little faster than the plus P from the 4 inch.
Also, the Speer handbook #14 shows loads for the same SB bullet (part # 4014) from 6 inch barrels using H110 from MAG cases at 1387 FPS. This seems to be inconsistent with what the rep is telling us.
I carry my 3 inch M686 with the 135 gr plus P ammo, the same as my 2 inch J frames. If I still had a 4 inch carry gun, it would also be stoked with the same ammo.

Best,
Rick

 

[ArtyM]

Some people may be misinterpreting the feedback. The 38+p SB load should be great out of a 4" barrel. The questions is really about the 357 load, which will do 1000 fps out of a 2" gun. Velocity could run up a bit high out of a 4" gun and perhaps too high out of a longer barrel. The reloading information for a 6" barrel and 357 loads specifically states that they are varmint loads at the higher velocities and self defense loads at starting velocities.
The tech person I emailed recommended the 38+p as an excellent load out of 4" barrels. The 357 SB load is optimized for a 2-3" barrel.

 

[Boge]

Remember, you spoke with a TECH. If you called Ford you won't get a Formula One driver on the line to answer your questions about performance. If you want to know how something was built then ask the engineer. If you want to know how it WORKS in the Real World ask the "test pilot", i.e., the people who have actually used the round. Unfortunately, that data is not available to the general public anymore.

I lost all faith in ballistic engineers when one at Speer told me that the 9mm 147 gr. Gold Dot was better than their 9mm 115 gr. +p+ Gold Dot (53612). When I asked him point blank what he based that upon he said "tests". I then asked him if he'd ever seen anyone shot with the 147 gr. or even watched an autopsy of such. He meekly said no. Go figure.

 

[41 fan]

I have chronoed the Speer 125 and 135 JHP cartridges. From a 3 inch model 65, they went 1230 and 1100 fps. Dean

 

[ArtyM]

I have chronoed the Speer 125 and 135 JHP cartridges. From a 3 inch model 65, they went 1230 and 1100 fps. Dean

Are these both 357 loads?

 

[Texas Star]

I have chronoed the Speer 125 and 135 JHP cartridges. From a 3 inch model 65, they went 1230 and 1100 fps. Dean

These were presumably the .357 loads?

I'm surprised that the 125 wasn't faster. And the 1100FPS for the SB load is a bit faster than the 1,050 or so that I expected, but individual guns and ammo lots could easily account for that.

Thanks. Great to know!

I want some of that .357 load for my three-inch SP-101.

BTW, I've seen chrono tests in gun magazines showing Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip clocking a little better than 1200 FPS from three-inch revolver barrels. That's a pretty deadly load, and one that I think might fare well if one has to shoot a cougar; maybe even a black bear.

Both FBI and Dallas PD found the 145 Silvertip to be very effective. I think it's still one of the best .357 Magnum loads...when you can find any.

 

[Texas Star]

Some people may be misinterpreting the feedback. The 38+p SB load should be great out of a 4" barrel. The questions is really about the 357 load, which will do 1000 fps out of a 2" gun. Velocity could run up a bit high out of a 4" gun and perhaps too high out of a longer barrel. The reloading information for a 6" barrel and 357 loads specifically states that they are varmint loads at the higher velocities and self defense loads at starting velocities.
The tech person I emailed recommended the 38+p as an excellent load out of 4" barrels. The 357 SB load is optimized for a 2-3" barrel.

Thanks! That qualifying element wasn't part of an earlier post and is vital knowledge.