Can I shoot +P ammo in my Model 36?

[gila_dog]

I have a model 36 .38 Special that I would like to feed +P ammo. Is it safe to do so?
***
I did some searching and found some advice that it's ok and won't hurt the gun. It may not be pleasant to shoot, but if I can use Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr +P ammo just for the occasional practice shots, and any serious self defense purposes, it should be ok.
Any other info would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

There are enough discussions on this subject on this Forum that will take you all day to read.

Search results for query: +p ammo model 36

smith-wessonforum.com

I like this one.

S

Post in thread 'Model 36 advice'

Oct 16, 2024

The Model 36 is an all-steel J-frame with a model number, not just a name. Per S&W, +P is safe in all-steel J- and K-frames that have a model number stamped into the frame's crane recess. Being all-steel, +P 38 Special will recoil a little more than standard pressure loads, but it is far from being abusive to the revolver or the shooter. Given the way the major U.S. ammo manufacturers have gone with 38 Special, their +P loads tend to be barely higher pressure/velocity than their standard loads. Now if you were to use something like Buffalo Bore's +P ammo, it will recoil more as that is...

• stansdds

I just do not see the point in shooting +P ammunition through a 2-inch barrel. I like the referenced discussions for various reasons, but not the concept. You'll get a nice muzzle blast, especially at an indoor range, extra recoil, and for what gain? For serious self defense, I recommend high-quality .38 Special ammunition designed for the purpose. For example, Hornady's 125-grain XTP .38 Special ammunition is everything that you need, nothing that you don't. YMMV

 

[MetalMan]

The rule of thumb is that any S&W marked with a "Model Number" is safe to use with +p ammunition with the caveat that this should be used sparingly rather than as a steady diet.

 

[gwpercle]

A Limited Amount of +P shooting will not be dangerous .
The model 36 is an all steel revolver ... but it is a small J-Frame and was made before the advent of +P ammo ...
So go easy with the amount of +P shooting you do !
The optimal word here is ... " Limited " .

My J-frames stay loaded with 160 gr. wadcutter standard velocity ammo ... because I can shoot it well with fast follow up shots !

And ... I can tell you ... in a gunfight ... only hits count !
Gary

 

[Doug M.]

The solution/problem math does not work. It is unlikely that a JHP will expand properly from most 2" .38s, and as noted about, the additional annoyance of blast and perceived recoil is not likely to be worth it. Placement and penetration matter; little else does. Load it with standard weight and pressure SWCs or even WCs and drive on.

 

[daveboy]

To answer the OP, yes the Model 36 can handle 38+P. To answer the others, I'm curious concerning your comments that the +P is worthless in a snubnose. I'm not arguing with you, just trying to learn something. Agreed that a short barrel will not ring-out the potential of any factory .38 load. But, if I'm shooting standard-velocity ammo that is handicapped somewhat by the short barrel, why not shoot higher-velocity ammo? I realize that it will also be handicapped, but since it will have a higher-velocity (in theory) to begin with, won't it still be faster than the standard load? I know there are many variables here, powder burn-rate being one of them. A slow-burning powder is going to produce a lot of its energy in the atmosphere instead of in the gun. But, with the proper, faster-powder, I'd think that more energy produced by a +P round, released inside the confines of the gun, would hit harder than a standard load. What am I missing here?

 

[GerSan69]

I'm not an expert, but what I've read in a few articles is that the round exits the short barrel before the entire powder charge has burned and the pressure behind the bullet has reached its full amount. The bullet, therefore, doesn't reach its full potential and its terminal performance is limited. That's why you're better off using ammunition made expressly for short-barreled revolvers. Their powder burns faster and moves the bullet out quicker. Same principle as using a short barrel on an AR.... the bullet is already exiting the barrel before the powder finishes burning.

 

[stansdds]

Yes, it is safe to shoot +P 38 Special in a S&W J-frame so long as it is a steel or stainless steel cylinder and frame and has a model number stamped in the frame's crane recess. As to the effectiveness of +P ammo in a 2 inch barrel, modern loads often use a fairly fast burning powder, so they are tailored to barrel lengths of 2 to 4 inches. You will still see the greatest increase in velocity with a 4 inch barrel, but even with a 2 inch barrel there will be a velocity advantage over standard pressure 38 Special.

 

[Chuck Edwards]

As noted above, +P is safe in a M36.

Just as important is where your chosen ammo hits in relation to point of aim. Older J frames are typically regulated for 148-158-grain ammo, while newer ones seem to be regulated for lighter bullet weights. The only way to find out is to shoot your revolver with different ammunition to see which it prefers, then buy both your practice ammo and carry ammo in that weight. Hitting what you're aiming at is more important than expansion.

Modern lighter-weight bullets tend to expand at least somewhat from snubbies. Heavier ones tend to not expand, so going with a solid bullet (wadcutter or semi-wadcutter) is the better choice.

 

[MajorD]

to piggyback on other comments, “modern” plus P ammo is intended to drive usually lighter than standard weight hollow point bullets to higher velocity with the hope you will get both adequate penetration and expansion. There is a threshold at which this occurs velocity wise, and it simply can not be obtained out of a snub nose.
I have been witness to properly conducted gel tests of numerous 38 loads and here is the bottom line for snubs:
If it penetrates it won’t expand
If it expands it won’t penetrate

The conclusion from lots of testing is that one of the best choices is the humble 148 target wadcutter, possibly at slight higher velocities as loaded by high desert Georgia arms and some other boutique makers, but mainstream wad cutters from regular brands are OK too.

Some things to consider:
Most light bullet HP loads will not shoot to point of aim of the sights
Heavier recoil in these guns can be punishing and won’t help get in follow up shots.
Cost more for little to no ballistic advantage

Wadcutters shoot to point of aim in most snubs
Light recoil and high accuracy
Cut a full diameter hole as they penetrate tending to cut what they hit while round nose pushes it out of the way undamaged

 

[roundels]

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. The gun may be okay with it but your hand may not be.

 

[Dump1567]

If you don't want to shoot +P in your gun, Hornandy makes a non+P version of the CD round. And it performed about the same as the +P version in Luckygunners .38 Gel tests. Buffalo Bore also makes a 158 Gr. LSWCHP in standard pressure which is probably on par with other factories +P offerings. BB can somehow keep this at standard .38 Spl. pressure though.

But an occasional +P shouldn't hurt your gun.

I don't know what S&W's stance is currently for +P ammo in older J frames, but this older Manuel (I think from the 90's) shows they didn't support it. And even came out with the 36-7 to specifically handle +P ammo. It does show +p ammo as being safe in steel K frames that weren't marked +P.

 

[kbm6893]

There are enough discussions on this subject on this Forum that will take you all day to read.

Search results for query: +p ammo model 36

smith-wessonforum.com

I like this one.

S

Post in thread 'Model 36 advice'

Oct 16, 2024

The Model 36 is an all-steel J-frame with a model number, not just a name. Per S&W, +P is safe in all-steel J- and K-frames that have a model number stamped into the frame's crane recess. Being all-steel, +P 38 Special will recoil a little more than standard pressure loads, but it is far from being abusive to the revolver or the shooter. Given the way the major U.S. ammo manufacturers have gone with 38 Special, their +P loads tend to be barely higher pressure/velocity than their standard loads. Now if you were to use something like Buffalo Bore's +P ammo, it will recoil more as that is...

• stansdds

I just do not see the point in shooting +P ammunition through a 2-inch barrel. I like the referenced discussions for various reasons, but not the concept. You'll get a nice muzzle blast, especially at an indoor range, extra recoil, and for what gain? For serious self defense, I recommend high-quality .38 Special ammunition designed for the purpose. For example, Hornady's 125-grain XTP .38 Special ammunition is everything that you need, nothing that you don't. YMMV

The NYPD issues 135 grain Gold Dot +P ammo for the few guys still carrying an off duty revolver. Last guy who could be carrying one would have about 29 years on the job so there aren’t many left.

 

[Pisgah]

Of course you can. No further answer required.

 

[Outpost75]

In high volume training use a J-frame may develop about 0.002 end shake after about 1000 rounds of +P. This is corrected by either shimming or stretching the yoke barrel. While this corrects the end shake, it will also increase B-C gap. Generally can be done twice before gap reaches max.

These days S&W accepts 0.010 B-C gap in Customer Service, but this causes a significant velocity loss of -50 fps or more compared to a gun at Mean Assembly Tolerance of pass 0.005 / hold 0.006.

Once gap exceeds 0.008 pass /0.009 hold factory fix back in my day was to refit a +0.005" longer cylinder to correct an "open front gage." Common gunsmith fix is to set barrel back after refitting yoke.

 

[Dave Haynes]

The most significant issue is hitting point of aim. The 36 is extremely accurate with 158 gr bullets. Lighter or heavier can dramatically change where that bullet is going to hit. A +P super load means nothing if you aim at center mass and the round hits the leg or misses high right. It already recoils pretty well and adding a significant power gain makes it even more likely to miss. A perp charging at you with a knife is not likely to react much when hit in the meat of a thigh or grazed in the shoulder. A standard .38 spl in the engine room is going to make a person very sick very quick. He feels nothing if you miss.

 

[Outpost75]

The most significant issue is hitting point of aim. The 36 is extremely accurate with 158 gr bullets. Lighter or heavier can dramatically change where that bullet is going to hit.

Older Model 36 revolvers were generally targeted with standard pressure 158 grain lead service loads at 20 yards. Today's J-frames are usually targeted with wadcutters, which provide a good compromise zero for most ammo.

Firing either of my 642s a neck hold on an FBI TQ target drops W-W 110-grain +P into the "bottle" at 50 yards. LE trained shooters should have no trouble qualifying over the old Tactical Revolver Course we used back in the 1980s.

 

[Piwo]

FWIW....

I have never seen anything in print from Smith and Wesson stating that steel J frames with the model number are okay. If there is, I would like to see it. Back in the 1970s I remember reading in the American Rifleman that steel K frames with the model number stamped in the frame were okay for plus P. Steel J frames were not rated for it. Not until 1996 if I remember correctly. Having said that, I have put a lot of Plus P ammo through my 1989 era model 49 without issue. Also my 1970s era Charter Arms Undercover. As an aside, in that same article, Ruger stated that there was no difference in heat treatment between their 38 and 357 revolvers, only depth of chamber. Same with Dan Wesson. I don't remember what Colt said.

Again, if anyone has a copy of anything in writing from S&W stating that steel J frames made before 1996 are okay with Plus P I would be interested in seeing it. I believe they are fine with it, just not sanctioned by the factory.

Like the story that Elmer Keith routinely blew up revolvers by hot loading them---I only know of 2 from his writings...the story gets twisted over time.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

The NYPD issues 135 grain Gold Dot +P ammo for the few guys still carrying an off duty revolver. Last guy who could be carrying one would have about 29 years on the job so there aren’t many left.

LAPD does the same. Anyone there carrying a revolver will have 36 years on the job.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I have a model 36 .38 Special that I would like to feed +P ammo. Is it safe to do so?

Any other info would be appreciated.

No reason to get a high round count on a 36. As a cop we shot a lot with our primary revolver and the 36 was a secondary or a BUG (Back Up Gun). We shot them lightly to maintain familiarity.

I see posts where people said they shoot 150 rounds in the 36. That doesn’t make sense.